Gun thread(random but still slightly pyro)

[Swede]

Swede, I can't speak for everywhere, but the new mantra for most defense schools these days is "Shoot to Stop the Threat" as a opposed to kill. Read between the lines we know that means kill, but I guess it's all about CYA.

You are very correct, and that is an important distinction. Following any defensive shooting, one must be very careful with what you say. Things like "I was afraid for my life. I thought he had a weapon and was going to kill me. I wanted to stop him." works much better than "He was in my home, so I decided to kill him."

 

TheSidewinder - I'm with you, if he is hauling ass, he goes free. I will never shoot someone running away from me, nor would I shoot someone over property. In Texas, apparently they passed a law that says you can shoot to protect private property in certain circumstances. I am rabidly pro-gun and anti-crime, yet this to me seems to go a bit too far.

[WarezWally]

I don't think they will be to happy if the guy has been shot in the back either.

[AprenticeChemist]

Thats the new saying for me "Rather be judged by twelve then carried by 6". Thats pretty much what i've been saying just not in such a cool way.

 

As far as shooting to kill or shooting to wound, I myself would be shooting to kill. If the world was as I would like it then you would be able to shoot someone for breaking in regardless to whether or not they were threatening you. This would help reduce the crime rate because burglars would be more iffy about robby people. I have no sympathy for criminals for most things. Some things obviously im ok with becuase some laws are meant to be broken, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else but the person involved such as underage drinking or you should figure it out.

 

If someone is running out of my house then ill let them go because its hard to explain self defense if you shot the guy in the back. Now there is one exception if this guy was fleeing because he had attacked a family member or such and realized he fucked up when he saw me I garuntee ill put him 6ft under regardless if I go to jail or not you don't fuck with my family.

[Swede]

Picture this scenario... The guy you wounded (call him "Crakhead") is limping slowly to the witness stand. His arm is in a sling. He is "sworn in."

 

Proescutor: "Please tell us what happened on the night of July 1st."

 

Crakhead: "Yeah, man, I was a little drunk, and a little high. Disoriented, ya know? I'm in this dude's crib, and..."

 

Prosecutor: "You were inside his home?"

 

Crakhead: "Yeah man, I was lost. Didn't mean no harm."

 

Prosecutor: "Please continue."

 

Crackhead: "This dude (points at YOU) was WHACK, ya know. Came at me screaming, said he was gonna bust a cap in me. I tried to reason with him, told him I would leave, but he was foaming, he was hot, whips out a pistol, threatens to shoot me. I raised my hands, said 'Man, I just wanna go home.' He laughed at me and said 'That ain't happening. You're gonna die.' "

 

Prosecutor: "And that was when he shot you?"

 

Crakhead: "I begged him not to. He pulled the trigger, laughing like crazy. I played dead till the cops came. Dude is crazy, dangerous whack."

 

Prosecutor: "I have no more questions."

 

 

Dead criminals tell no lies...

[mormanman]

LOL, I like the dialogue, it was very nice.

I also agree with Swede, criminals will lie to get out of anything. Thats partially why they're so scary, b/c they have no moral standards.

[AprenticeChemist]

Well I must have no moral standards either because if its the differnce between jail or being free ill lie my mother fucking ass off. Anyone is going to lie if they think its going to keep them out of jail. Thats not having no moral standards thats just part of self preservation.

 

But that is true about them not really having moral standards. Thats why you never trust crimanals no matter how much you think they are your best friend they can turn you around and fuck you so bad. The better and more rich a criminal is the worse he is, because thats how he got rich is by being a grimy son of a bitch.

 

 

Also very good mock up swede. This is probably exactly what will happen. The one thing I want to point out though is if you find yourself in this situation GET THE BEST FUCKING LAWYER you can regardless if you have to take out a loan or anything. Because the better the lawyer the more likely you won't be prosecuted for defending yourself. Hell if you get a good enough lawyer you can get away with murder look at OJ. And if thats not good enough I know someone that got caught red handed with an Oz of Crack an Oz of Cocaine and some marijuana, for those of you that don't know an Oz of either crack or cocaine is worth a couple thousand each. He was supposed to get 10 years hard time and didn't serve a day hes on strict probation but no jail. So if you got a good enough lawyer you can do anything you want.

[FrKoNaLeaSh1010]

although I just wanted to say about the whole wound/kill thing your basic instinct is to shoot at the center of mass to get a direct hit which usually means the cheat. I seen it on history channel and they said that was why they made vullet proof vest cause when the cops or army or w/e would run into a room the first instinct of the opposer is to get the gun and fire into the middle of the target(chest) to guarantee a hit. If someone runs in your house with a gun I highly doubt you have the time to think and shoot them in the leg to wound or to get a head shot to kill. The basic instinct points at the middle aka chest and stomach and you unload on it

[mormanman]

Well I must have no moral standards either because if its the differnce between jail or being free ill lie my mother fucking ass off. Anyone is going to lie if they think its going to keep them out of jail. Thats not having no moral standards thats just part of self preservation.

Well I suppose its not just not having moral standards, also self preservation. Still, I don't know if I would lie or not. I mean when I was caught with the fireworks in Fort Worth, man I told them why I was there, what I was doing. I tried to make sure he didn't get pissed at me so. I was lucky that he wrote I had possession and not actually making them. Man I was lucky as balls.

[Frozentech]

In Texas, apparently they passed a law that says you can shoot to protect private property in certain circumstances. I am rabidly pro-gun and anti-crime, yet this to me seems to go a bit too far.

Here in Alaska, they also passed a new "castle law" ( ie - a man's home is his castle ) which allows for deadly force to protect property as well as life. The murder rate in our largest city has dropped to almost exactly half what it was before that law was passed, and as far as I know only two times has that law been used as a defense. Now if we could only get rid of the meth and crack it would drop by half again !

[qwezxc12]

I know this thread kinda went the way of discussion of politics, rights, bans, and opinions of all sides. I wanted to share a neat accessory for all you truck owners out there: a genuine "John Browning Enhanced Tailgate Discourager"

 

I've had this baby for a while, but this past weekend I finally got a change to run a few belts through her...Weeeee! It's semi, but a 6-lobe crank assembly makes for short work of many rounds. Pricey these days, though, with .308 running ~$450/k...thank God I stocked up on many cases of Portuguese and SA surplus when it was dirt cheap.

Edited October 14, 2008 by qwezxc12

[hst45]

VERY cool! My late father was toying with the idea of fitting a Jeep CJ6 with an imitation Browning 1917 on a pod to replicate a "Rat Patrol" type Jeep. (late 1960's T.V. show set in WWII North Africa) He thought that it would be interesting to drive into town on a Sunday morning and park in the town square and watch peoples reactions. The only thing your rig is lacking is a "Hillary" bumper sticker on the receiver! Keep 'em confused.

 

Mind if I take a crank or two?

[WarezWally]

How difficult would it be to make an AR-15 mag? Someone at work recently got a Remmington 7615 and wants a bigger mag.

[Swede]

I'm not sure what you want to do... make a LARGER mag? Why not just buy some?

 

Making a magazine from scratch is in many ways harder than machining a firearm receiver, because a mag like one for an AR-15 has reinforcing ribs and such that can be made only with a hydraulic press and a die. The basic shape would have to be cut and stamped, then folded and welded. Big machines can crank them out quick. By hand, it'd be tough.

 

Ah, I think I understand, being in Oz you cannot mail-order high-cap magazines? I wish I could help you. Any gun show here has crates of 30-rd AR mags for $7 ea used, and they have "beta" mags that hold something like 120 rounds.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Swede

[WarezWally]

Cant buy big mags here

 

I figured I would need a die & press to make the ribs.

 

At this present time I have access to a press, sheet metal brake, sheet metal sheer, spot welder, lathe and maybe a small CNC mill that can do aluminium. I'm getting his 5 round mag tomorrow to get a better look but from what I can tell the rifle will accept standard AR-15 mags.

 

Is it possible to do with non automated tools? The only real problem I see is getting the ribs on the sheet and getting it accurate enough so it feeds. Cutting out and bending the sheet shouldn't be to difficult.

Edited November 15, 2008 by WarezWally

[FrKoNaLeaSh1010]

Thats cool I didnt even know they made pump action guns that shot rifle rounds. According to the website it takes standard ar15 mags so technically any standard mag will fit. Personally I wouldnt put a homemade mag into my gun due to possible damages from not feeding properly but then again you can get 30rd mags for dirt cheap and 90rd drums online if you want. Do you know how much your friend paid for the remington 7615?

[Swede]

WW, I think it can be done with home sheet metal equipment. The reason the ribs are there is to make cheap and light aluminum have the necessary strength. Use a slightly heavier gauge of steel sheet, and make it slab-sided, no ribs or such. The only truly accurate portion would be that which mates with the rifle; the stuff underneath can vary a bit. Use the follower from the 5 round mag.

 

I would find a print of a 30 round mag, or somehow trace the actual outline on a sheet of paper. Create a paper or cardboard mockup of a 3d mag, then unfold it, and there's your sheet metal pattern.

 

A spot welder would be ideal, or you can TIG weld the seams.

[WarezWally]

I'm getting his 5 rounder this thursday to have a look at / take measurements. I plan on buying the spring / insert online and having it shipped here.

 

I have access to a spot welder but I think I would be better off brazing it together.

Edited November 18, 2008 by WarezWally

[Bonny]

I'm getting his 5 rounder this thursday to have a look at / take measurements. I plan on buying the spring / insert online and having it shipped here.

 

I have access to a spot welder but I think I would be better off brazing it together.

 

 

I'd go with the spot welder if you have the option, although you will then need extra bends to give you a seam. You might have some distortion from the heat if you braze it. If you have a MIG and 023 wire that would be an option too.

[Swede]

Sorry to bump this old thread. WarezWally, did you ever get that mag done? I'm curious.

 

Right now in the U.S., there's a huge run on weapons of all sorts with Obama about to take office. Prices have skyrocketed, and the shelves are empty of ammo. What ammo there is is very expensive due to the double-whammy of Cu and Pb prices, and demand for the finished product.

[WarezWally]

I have had a bit of a tinker but I'm still thinking of a way to press the ribs into the sheet metal. Ideally I would use a bur bit on a mill to mill a groove in some aluminium or steel plate and then make the reverse fitting piece. All I would need to do would be to insert the either folded or un-folded sheet and press the grove in. I wouldnt make the spring, follower or bottom plate as I can import those no problem. Shame I can buy a stamped, unfolded mag online

 

It doesn't sound hard but I'm not a toolmaker (yet )

Edited January 1, 2009 by WarezWally

[Swede]

It doesn't sound hard but I'm not a toolmaker (yet )

 

It DOES sound hard, believe me! Making a homemade magazine is not for the faint of heart. Good luck with it.

[bret]

Well Swede in a crazy way yes most people do obey this law. I'm really a rare breed here to absolutely defend myself and the others around me if I needed to. Many people won'even try to attack the other person because they don't know how. It's legal to carry a foldable blade up to 28cm unfolded (11") but most people don't know. When I whip out my Ti Lite (19cm) or my CS RECON 1 (25cm) most people look scared and think I'm some criminal with an illigal knife. It's not but the crazy thing is cops are the exact same. I've had a cop look at my knife once and tried to make me believe it was illigal and tried to take it away from me. So I told him that he pretty much had 2 choices. #1: You give me back my knife and leave me alone. #2: Take my knife away and bring me to the police station as well and I'll give a full report on him that he's a lousy cop that doesn't know the law. It's not allowed to carry a knife in the town centre but outside that no one can do a jack sh*t.

 

I've had a friend of mine nearly got strangeled and he didn't resist simply because of the fact that if you kill or disable the attacker you're gonna be the one to go to jail. But to be honest I wouldn't care. Don't take my wrong I really wouldn't want to go to jail but if I'm put in a situation where it's either me or him, it's gonna be him for sure. I've only used my knife once and it didn't even see any action. A guy wanted to rape me (I was in the woods) so I pulled my knife and told him to get the hell outta here before he'd get hurt. IF the guy that tried to rape me pressed charges against me I'd be arrested for attempted assault with a deadly weapon. He'd go free!

 

 

So to answer your question, yes most people won't do a jack shit and even when they do, they'd probably wouldn't use enough force to take the person out because they fear being arrested themselves.

 

 

@Oskarchem: The point of self defense is not to kill the person but to disable them. So a round to the knee, chest or shoulder will be enough to stop most attackers from trying to do more harm. Especially for me as a knife-guy it's important to hit the parts of the body that would simply disable the attacker. So arms, legs and groin. Chest and head can be deadly easily and in a country where self defense is frowned upon that's not something you want.

 

It doesn't matter if it's 1 round or a whole magazine. If the coroner finds the first 26 shots didn't kill him but the 27th did it would still be accounted as self defense. As long as the threat is still there you're allowed to defend yourself.

 

If you only have to wound the person by shooting them in the knee or arm, obviously deadly force was not needed in the situation.

 

You would be surprised at how deadly a knife can be, even from a person 20 feet away, there have been tests done where a person armed with a knife 20' away charged an armed officer and was on him quicker than he could unholster his weapon, and when they said GO, the guy with the knife came at the officer and at the same time the officer was starting to unholster his weapon.

 

people watch too much TV and think knee capping a person is an easy thing to do and will drop them immediately.

 

If you are truly in fear of your life and need to use a weapon, you aim for COM and do not stop shooting until the threat is eliminated, once the guy is down and if he is no longer a threat, that is when you stop shooting, now once the guy is incappacitated, you can't go give him a last shot or two to finish him off.

 

I have been carrying a gun for over 20 years and luckily I have never had to use it, but if I do I will know what to do.

[WarezWally]

I found a dodgy seller locally who will sell me a 20 round colt mag for $200

[Swede]

@bret - agreed. If you need to fire your weapon, you need to have the mental mindset to kill.

 

@WW - is the mag illegal, or grandfathered? Will he "rent" it to you for measurement? Finally, if an individual in the U.S. mailed you a mag, what sort of trouble are we talking about? $200 is insane and is what happens when things are made illegal or artificially scarce.

[WarezWally]

I am fairly sure high cap mags are illegal. I guess they wanted to stop criminals and crazy people from going nuts, except that they forgot that the laws don't apply to criminals and Joe Madman can simply insert another magazine and be on his merry way.

 

As for what would happen if I imported a magazine illegally, your guess is as good as mine. It could range from getting a letter telling me how naughty I am to having the local boys in blue arresting me, going to court and getting a stupidly large fine. Recently with our "high power laser death ray ban" some bloke got pulled up for importing 50 of those shitty red key chain lasers that we all had when we were kids, he ended up getting charged and got some stupidly large fine. I am fairly sure someone else got 'busted' for importing a Transformer (the robot thingys) which transformed into a pistol.

 

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resource...onchristmas.jpg

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resource...llery/laser.jpg

 

I feel so much safer knowing that I wont be held up with a transformer (ironic that replica pistols are legal in a few states) and that the next time I'm on a plane it wont be shot down by a evil laser death weapon

Edited January 3, 2009 by WarezWally