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How to roll pyro-tubes


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#141 dagabu

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 08:45 AM

I suppose so but it's an instinctual path to hunt and problem solve until the quarry is bagged.

I have an entire winter to gnash my teeth and knead my hands over tube rolling, to search for the best possible solution for me with the materials at my disposal.

My wood shop is stuffed to the ceiling with supplies and I can hardly open the door so no making machines or other hobbies can be worked on until we move.

Looks like it's all tubes all the time this winter!

You guys do make it hard for yourselves! good luck! :D


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#142 Col

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:07 AM

The stuff i`m using for the test is pretty basic, a 40" x 24" piece of mdf, 1m x 60mm od tube, paint brush, glue and 12" of 19.15mm od solid ptfe rod.

Attached File  materials.jpg   30.1KB   1 downloads


Edited by Col, 08 December 2018 - 10:23 AM.


#143 dagabu

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:43 AM

What is the 60 mm tube for?
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#144 Col

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 02:18 PM

The 60mm tube is a former which converts the big notched sheet (in the paper pic) into a 3-ply 3ft x 190mm single sheet with feathered ends, 60mm* Pi is 190mm ish per turn ;). The first turn is not glued, the 2nd and 3rd turns are glued. After rolling, its cut lengthwise at the paper`s start/end point (exactly 3 turns) and opened out. Note, the grain direction is shifted automatically. It goes onto the former in this direction: IIIIII and comes off in this direction: ===


Edited by Col, 08 December 2018 - 02:21 PM.


#145 dagabu

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 03:10 PM

I am missing something here, you calendar it up on the 60 mm tube then roll the calendared paper on the 19.15 mm rod?


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#146 Col

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 06:03 PM

Yep, exactly that, roll a 3ft long 3-turn 60mm id tube using a 3ft x 570mm sheet of kraft. Cut it lengthwise along the line where the first turn starts and the last turn ends. Use the 3-ply sheet to roll the 3/4" tube. A metre of 2.5" od tube would`ve been a better fit (200mm per turn) for the 3ft x 2ft sheet but 60mm is all i had on hand.

 

Marking a line on the former makes aligning the sheet easy, attach it to the former with 2 small tabs of thin tape on the corners of the kraft sheet. Those points will become the ends of the final tube. Attaching the sheet to the former makes applying the glue easier, cos the paper is pinned down by the former and it has half of the 1st turn on it. You can roll the tube without worrying about aligning anything so there`s no delay or panic. The 3 x 2 sheet will take 15 seconds or less to roll onto the former.


Edited by Col, 08 December 2018 - 06:40 PM.


#147 dagabu

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 07:40 PM

I am very disappointed with the overall OD of my wallpaper paste tubes, I will be using the calendaring idea to roll one up that will hopefully fit in the support like the PVA rolled ones.


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#148 dagabu

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 03:51 PM

Looks like my new confection of two adhesives is working fine to make tubes! 

 

gallery_9798_257_3408673.jpg


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#149 dagabu

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 03:53 PM


 Thanks to a good friend, I was able to get a fantastic deal on some virgin (or mostly so) bleached kraft paper in 36" X 24" sheets, white in color and about #40 (0.0040") thick. 

gallery_9798_257_7645058.jpg

I wanted a placeholder to record my progress and review where I need to go back to if I run astray. It's not a how-too as much as it is a record of my experiences collectively so please comment but the adhesive has been worked to ad nauseum and I like it right where it is now.

Also, no need to comment on the paper, it's a fixed quantity as is the adhesive. I am working through getting the paper to roll tight and make solid tubes with no gaps. 

Come along and join me on this journey, maybe we will see your tubes fly this summer at PGI?

Lets start with the glue/s I am using for this project, this is a combination of two adhesives:

Amazonbasics Washable School Glue diluted with filtered water to a 60:40 ratio. I am doing this because the initial tack is too great and the viscosity is so high to roll out well so there was a lot of loss due to it being pushed out while rolling.

At the time of this writing, this glue was only available in a 2 gallon purchases and looks to have been discontinued. I found Elmer's to be insufficient and lacking. You may have to search for a good white glue that will dilute this far and still have good tack.

gallery_9798_257_593207.jpg

The other is PRO-880 clear wallpaper paste by Roman mixed with filtered water to a  50:50 ratio. This paste has the viscosity of Crisco! It has to be diluted to roll onto paper so that it spreads out. 

At the time of this writing, this was purchased through Home Depot online for $11.99 a gallon. They carry several Roman wallpaper pastes, this one seems to work well.

gallery_9798_257_87200.jpg

Both of these adhesives are then mixed together in a 50/50 mix and agitated carefully so as to not foam the liquid. I find this to pour well like a good Egg Nog! It does not taste anything like it but with some nutmeg, it may improve some. 

I then pour enough of the adhesive into a 4" mini roller pan to fill the well and roll in enough adhesive to saturate a 3/8" nap roller cover. 

gallery_9798_257_4325704.jpg

 The paper is cut into strips 8" wide and 36" long. The grain of course runs across the short way making it very easy to roll up on the former.

gallery_9798_257_2785465.jpg

I lay a single sheet out on my PTFE board, it has a clip at the top that has an aluminum flat bar with a 1" closed cell foam pad glued to it to hold the paper while still allowing me to pull it out of the clip without tearing it, even if the paper is wet. 

gallery_9798_257_6775331.jpg

Once the roller is mildly saturated, I simply draw the roller down the paper to a line pre-drawn on the rolling board signifying the glue line. The remaining paper remains dry so the former slides off easily. 

The former in this case is a section of aluminum 9" long and 0.775" OD, it does have packing tape on it to help keep any stray glue from getting a good grip. It seems to work well and give me just enough over size to allow for shrinkage of the paper.

gallery_9798_257_644959.jpg

Once rolled up, the rolling board is used to tighten the tube and align all the fibers. This works so well that even with wrinkles, (as you see in the picture above) the rolling, pressure and tightening make the end result smooth and even.

gallery_9798_257_6099531.jpg

 This leaves me with ragged ends that need to be trimmed, this pile of 16 shows the paper up close as well as one tube that has wrinkles inside that I will have to watch closely. 

gallery_9798_257_1367894.jpg

Two more layers, a drying cycle between each layer, trim both ends and this will be the  pile tomorrow (I subbed in tubes trimmed last night to show the difference). 

gallery_9798_257_3408673.jpg

This batch ended up at 1.010" OD, 0.076" ID and a wall thickness of 0.122". These dimensions change from tube to tube, lot to lot and end to end. I am very happy with this batch, the large rolling board (10" X 21") sure helps a lot in the endeavor. Waxing the board also helps keep the glue from pulling the paper off the tube when "back rolling" the board to loosen the tube up a bit so it will slide off the former.

Next Up: Spolettes

Edited by dagabu, 03 January 2019 - 07:49 AM.

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#150 Col

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 10:28 PM

Hey Dag, happy new year!

Glad the 50/50 glue is working well for you. I discovered the wickes wallpaper paste will mix with my high solids glue to produce a 39.5% glue which is  more useful than 19%. I figure your paper must be 4 thou (0.004") thick cos 0.04" (1mm) would be more like cardboard which is tough to roll ;) Greaseproof / baking paper (0.02mm thick) is quite useful for increasing mandrel diameter by a fraction, paste the full sheet and stick a strip of the greasproof paper to the glue, it`ll hold while you roll but will come away as the tube dries. Looking forward to seeing your progress.



#151 dagabu

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 07:52 AM

Good catch! Fixed it to thousands. I didn't do any proofing on that yet, it's a raw article I just jotted down off the top of my head.

I use packing tape on the former to increase the OD and use a true 0.75" rod for subsequent layers.

No way I can or want to add a strip of paper to my method, these burned up hands cannot manage that.

.

Hey Dag, happy new year!
Glad the 50/50 glue is working well for you. I discovered the wickes wallpaper paste will mix with my high solids glue to produce a 39.5% glue which is  more useful than 19%. I figure your paper must be 4 thou (0.004") thick cos 0.04" (1mm) would be more like cardboard which is tough to roll ;) Greaseproof / baking paper (0.02mm thick) is quite useful for increasing mandrel diameter by a fraction, paste the full sheet and stick a strip of the greasproof paper to the glue, it`ll hold while you roll but will come away as the tube dries. Looking forward to seeing your progress.


Edited by dagabu, 03 January 2019 - 07:55 AM.

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