lloyd Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Simoski,For decades, I owned a large (14") lathe manufactured in the 1930s. Back then, almost all industrial equipment was powered by crowned pulleys and flat-belt drives. And (get this!), the belts were usually made of leather. Since then, flat belting has improved -- when you find it, it is usually made of a synthetic fabric impregnated with a rubber-like elastomere. But usually, such large 'driveline' belts still have leather facings bearing on the pulleys! And just like in 'days of yore', the belts are joined at their cut ends either by sewing, or by what's called 'belt lacing'... a many-toothed 'loop' affair made of steel wire. Looped sections go on both cut ends, then they're spliced by inserting a zig-zag steel wired through the interleaved sections. It's still commonly sold, and readily available: https://www.grainger.com/category/lacing-and-lacing-tools/conveyors/material-handling/ecatalog/N-9qt I only just sold my old lathe four years ago to purchase a more-modern one with 'more toys'. But I never had any trouble at all with the belt drive system. Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stix Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 . . . For decades, I owned a large (14") lathe manufactured in the 1930s. Back then, almost all industrial equipment was powered by crowned pulleys and flat-belt drives . . . And driven by steam no doubt!! . . . . Sorry Lloyd, I couldn't help myself So, what I've been talking about, the correct term is called "crowned" pulleys? Well, you know, there are lots of good, even great ideas that are just discarded because something new comes along. It doesn't mean the idea is flawed. Instead of leather, we have many rubbers to choose from. My first lathe (some 30yrs ago) was purchased with my brother as a half/half investment. It was the lathe that the company advertised to "pull" customers in. Pretty much a piece of crap, and therefore to seduce the customer into buying a better model. But No No No, we wouldn't have that, we demanded that we have the lathe what was advertised!!... after much haggling we got it. That lathe was refurbished, and refurbished again not long ago. It has been to this day "the" Lathe. If it wasn't for that old lathe, I cant see how any of my tools for pyrotechnics use would ever have been made. I've recently tried to convince my brother that it's my turn to have it - but he has a sentimental attachment to it - as you do. So now we come 3D printers. Fantastic in my view. If I had one I would probably use it to create a mold to create another mold, to cast metal into, then polish up with a small cheap lathe. In any case they are "tools" and tools maketh the man - or the women - or the person that understands how to use them. I think crowned pulleys still have a valid use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) "I think crowned pulleys still have a valid use."---------------In fact, they do! I cannot think of even one high-end belt-driven disc turntable NOT driven by a flat belt and crowned pulley! Before anyone yells "Foul!"; no, the turntables are NOT obsolete... in fact, they (and vinyl LPs) are 'coming back'. And - yes - I have one. <grin> One of the distinct advantages to that sort of drive is 'vibration isolation', so that motor 'hum' and bearing noise doesn't get transmitted to the turntable, proper. But that's just one example. There are MANY 'delicate' industrial machines and instruments that used crowned pulleys and flat-belt drives. You just don't see them much on multi-horsepower equipment, anymore. Nonetheless, nearly all the industrial parts suppliers still stock belting material and splice kits. What you won't typically find are replacement pulleys for the larger equipment -- those are now usually shop-made. Lloyd Edited April 17, 2018 by lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldor Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 And driven by steam no doubt!! . . . . Sorry Lloyd, I couldn't help myself And even before steam, the were moved by hidraulic wheels. Entire factories were moved from one single source of power with flat belts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simoski Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 (edited) Brothers, I thank you for your input. It actually means a lot to me to be part of a brotherhood. Here is what is going to happen, in an iterative design process, for step 1 I am going to build it cheap and nasty, parts will be missing and parts will be over and under engineered. Poorly, quickly printed. Right now we need to get the "gearing" right, that is the capstan must pull the fuse through at the correct speed to get the right coverage. I am going to use elastic bands and a pulley box, to slow the rotational speed right down at the capstan, and then print the capstan pulley ( probably a few times ) to get the coverage just right. once we're there we can build the NEMA motor interface knowing the correct pulley ratios and optimize the pulleybox for 3dprinting ease and price. Add the uptake drum, build an inline NC lacquer bath. Then celebrate by distributing the STL files and doing underwater burn tests for youtube. Then sell the fuse online. : ) Edited April 19, 2018 by Simoski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldor Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Whant to simplyfy a little your job? Seems the reduction box will have a fixed ratio. Forget it and use bewel gears: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1655124 I know I talked against gears before, but was for parallel transmission from axis to axis. For moving capstan and drum axle, the gears are better. What you are doing now is a concept or principle prototype, not even a prototype of what you will finally build. No problem taking shortcuts here, as long as you know the final product will be very different. Basically, now you are testing the dies concept and the speed ratios between parts, nothing more. You only need the dies and the speed ratios to be Ok, the rest could be held with chewing gum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simoski Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 (edited) Hmmm I'm too high after 420 to notice, if it fails one way, we'll do it another way Baldor.Boet I don't think I know what parallel transmission from axis to axis is... maybe the thingy that is on top of the gearbox. I will post a pic of it in a moment, for now watch this video update. After reading what you said again Baldor, thats more or less it, principle prototype phase... phase one almost complete. Edited April 21, 2018 by Simoski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simoski Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Baldor is the green part at the top of the image below an axis to axis transmission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldor Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Seems you have a problem with triangulation tolerance. This is one of the reasons why you have too rough pulleys. Slice thickness seems Ok. You are not printing the belts. Why are you printing simple rods whose only function is to held the wire spools? You will find better rods at the manualities section of your nearest dollar store. The same could be applied to all the axles, just use an steel or aluminium rod, even wood will be better. Even without turning the surface finish will be better than printed. A drop of cianocrilate (if your plastic is cianocrilate resistant), and you have reduced by hours your printing time. The only tools you will need are a saw and a file. Parallel transmission: Probably a problem with my English. Transmission where both pulleys are on the same plane, both axis parallel. BTW, seems the belt in the upper motor pulley wants to slip. Have you tested it under power? Do you have some video of the machine under power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simoski Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldor Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 In the image, you ave a 90º transmision (The hand drawn axle is 90º from the pulleys in the box). This is were a pair of bevel gears will shine. If you use bevel gears, you only will need the box for supporting the axles, the two axles, and two bevel gears. What I was talking about is, for example, the transmission from motor axis to the first spindle axis. This is parallel, and well suited for belts. What I'm trying to do is optimise printing time and simplicity without compromising performance. Of course, if you like long print times, it's your toy. BTW, What software are you using? Is visualisation triangulation the same use later for slicing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simoski Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Baldor its not ready to spin yet, maybe next week for the first time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stix Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 And even before steam, the were moved by hidraulic wheels. Entire factories were moved from one single source of power with flat belts. Well Baldor, that IS the biggest ever Visco fuse making machine contraption I've ever seen. What are you going to do with 12 inch wide fuse that comes out of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldor Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I still have to find an use for it. I think it will be a nice effect by itself. :-) Jokes aside, you can see the thread in the bottom of the image. This was actually a cloth factory, and the trains of pulleys moved the looms and all the other machines from a single source, so is tangentially related to what we are discussing. This was moved by steam, but the first factories in Catalonia were near the rivers, and moved by hydraulic wheels. We call this systems of pulleys "embarrats", I don't know hot to translate it. Were extremely dangerous when a belt broke or if you put a hand in the wrong place. And noisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 There was a US Public Broadcasting film many years ago depicting a wood mill still in operation in 1990 that was entirely water-powered. They not only showed all the transmission equipment, but also showed the owner cleaning/clearing the waterwheel/turbine of debris. FASCINATING, especially considering our modern reliance on electrical power! I still have a copy on VERY POOR resolution VHS tape! (I probably should copy it to DVD before even they go obsolete! <grin>) Lloyd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stix Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Yes Lloyd, you should absolutely copy it before VHS tape is dead. I'm more of a "software" person only because it provides a "tool" that enables me to create a solution and it is flexible without mechanical constraints. But there is no denying that regardless of "software" solutions, the mechanical engineering side will never be replicated. Mechanics are just there, and they are so, and will always be. I do like the 3D printer, in that it enables ideas to be created in a solid form. If I had a 3D printer, I could put some of my ideas into fruition, but without a good understanding of engineering, then my ideas would likely end in a big fat fail. So, bringing this thread back to what it is about, then I'm looking forward to Simoski's results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Yeah, me too. I LIKE the progress of what he's done, even if I don't agree with every detail. I would be much-more vocal about deficiencies, if I thought they really mattered. But this machine is a prototype -- and I think it's been well thought-out. Anything else can be 'worked out' in the next iteration. Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldor Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 If you can tell us the title of the film, probably we can find it in youtube. I also like Simosks's endeavours. It is looking nice. But I'm a fan of the KISS principle, and I see it applied in the wrong parts of the prototype. (My ideal KISS machine will be made of wood... Or alternatively, it will have three motors, with relative speeds controlled by a PIC microcontroller and encoders. XD ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 I don't believe it was ever You-tubed, but I'll look up the actual title, and take a look. It came out as a private 'bonus' video for PBS contributors, and I really don't know if it ever went further than that. But its content was absolutely fascinating! Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Interestingly, it's still sold on DVD for $25 USD, but I can only find excerpts on the web. It was apparently 'commercially successful' enough to warrant converting it to DVD, while still not quite popular enough for folks to upload full copies. But now I know the DVD is out there, I shall obtain a copy. It's resolution HAS to be better than an off-the-air recording back in analog TV days! Thanks for the idea. Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2fESvZ9vOg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simoski Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Brothers I've got 2 public holidays coming up, Friday and Tuesday, I'm taking Monday off too, it means I've got a long long long weekend to finish version 1.There will be a lot of updates this weekend and some fuse : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simoski Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) Baldor, I'm using 3d studio max for the design work. I used to do a lot of animation, production graphics...I slice with simplify3D What cad program will give me really good bevel gears? Revit or what what? Edited April 25, 2018 by Simoski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simoski Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Arthur, that old water mill driven saw... I am thinking of designing a windmill that can do the same, but with a universal interface and on the other side of the interface you can aldd a saw like in the youtube clip, or a waterpump, or a woodchipper, or a generator etc Just thinking about it... any ideas on that guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldor Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 3DS max is not a CAD program!!!!! No wonder you have bad tringulation, you are working with triangles from the start!! Try FreeCAD, for example. In fact, any CAD program that can export to stl. But should be a CAD program, not an animation program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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