nater Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 The SBP tooling set is a lot of fun. Everything I listed above worked as I expected. The rocket made with just the red fuel flew slow, but I think an increment of whistle would make it fly nice and high. I think the nozzleless BP was my favorite. I didn't fly quite as fast as the nozzled, so it was easier to follow. The ones with the nozzle lifted so fast, they were hard to track. I think I will try more nozzleless BP with different colored star comps in the delay next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) The SBR tooling is fun to play with, try some nozzless balsa BP rockets. Once you get them to stop CATOing they move so fast they are "reporting" back to you about the time you light the fuse. I almost pooped myself the first one I shoot that worked it flew so fast. LOL Edited May 13, 2012 by warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
californiapyro Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 balsa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-slfVd77PyA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrumpy Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Balsa is pretty good but this one is fueled with Japanese knot weed (runs rife in the UK, not sure if you guys get it over the pond)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWDv9U-leewThe dragon eggs diddn't light but it still went with a nice pop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vh718 Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 one with super whistle fuel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdisgeC2aFc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Those are all nice videos. I want to make some of the super whistle fuel for them and some bigger rockets at the next shoot too. Looks like with the height they get, you could take bottle rockets back to what they were before my time. Has anyone tried binary headers this small? I think open vit f mixing is frowned on at club shoots. Edited May 14, 2012 by nater 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerousamateur Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) I'd like to do something in that size too. I have lot's of 3/8 inch x 2 inch tubes, they are the same length then the typical super bottle rocket. What spindle dimensions would you suggest for such a rocket? I would use something like 30mm and 3mm nozzle. And what kind of payload would you expect them to carry? Edited May 17, 2012 by dangerousamateur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vh718 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 i fired this 1/4" by 2.5" SBR the other day. I put a 1.5" ball shell on top http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNwhPb2Bn4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I was given a couple of pounds of Elephant 116 Fuse Powder BP. Has anyone ever made a rocket from this stuff? I thought it would be worth a try since all it is made of is fairly fine, not so uniform granules of Black Powder. The "116" reflects the burn speed, though I don't know what the range is, I do know that the lower the number the faster the burn time. "116" turn out to be a "medium" speed for this stuff. I do intend to try it myself and will report the results but thought I'd ask if anyone here has ever given the stuff a try before in case they have some input as to how well it will work. I plan on using my new Arbor Press for this too. I bought a 1 ton HF press since they were on sale this month for $40. I have stuff to make the platform for it like Nate & others did theirs plus a piece of thick Lexan that is about the right size for a shield. It is a bit wide, or long depending on how AI orient it but I can cut it easily enough to fit. I was wondering therefore what sort of pressure I should use to consolidate my Fuse Powder fuel in these little SBR's? Thanks for any input anyone has for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Since I broke my standoff, I don't have enough room for the PtoF gauge on the arbor press. I have kept the lever of the press in the middle, and pulled down until I cannot feel any more compaction. With the lever pulled all the way out, it was too much force on the tiny tooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vh718 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I was wondering therefore what sort of pressure I should use to consolidate my Fuse Powder fuel in these little SBR's? The whistle rocket above i pressed on my 1 ton arbor press from HF. I attached a torque wrench to mine so i can gauge the pressure being applied. for the first 2 increments i put 15lbs of pressure and the rest of the way up i put 10lbs. with the 20:1 arbor press its about 4,000 lbs of pressure on the comp when applying 10lbs. so, it should work fine applying 10lbs on the arbor press with the fuse powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Thanks guys, I will see what happens then and even try tio shoot some video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I was given a couple of pounds of Elephant 116 Fuse Powder BP. Has anyone ever made a rocket from this stuff? I thought it would be worth a try since all it is made of is fairly fine, not so uniform granules of Black Powder. The "116" reflects the burn speed, though I don't know what the range is, I do know that the lower the number the faster the burn time. "116" turn out to be a "medium" speed for this stuff. I do intend to try it myself and will report the results but thought I'd ask if anyone here has ever given the stuff a try before in case they have some input as to how well it will work. I use 116 for my go too rocket fuel, have used 80 pounds of it in the past four years in motors. It is equivalent to 60:30:10 BP. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I use 116 for my go too rocket fuel, have used 80 pounds of it in the past four years in motors. It is equivalent to 60:30:10 BP. -dag Well then, THAT'S what I wanted to hear. Thanks Dag, that helps a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juiceh Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Have a drive socket welded to the pinion of your arbor press and get a torque wrench that will work with that drive socket. I have a 1 ton arbor press setup that way. I press my whistle rockets at 18.5 Lbs of force on the wrench when using whistle fuels, that's 7500psi to the fuel. When using BP I use 25 Lbs of force on the wrench or 10,000Psi to the fuel. I do not change the pressure as I press the motor. If you use fuse powder you need to use much higher pressure than 4000 psi on the fuel. I believe I read somewhere that fuse powder is fines from the BP corning process, so the grains are very hard and require a lot of pressure to compact them. I do not know how they are made but the same goes for Pyrodex pellets if you try to use them in a rocket motor, you need to use high pressure to compact the grains because they are very hard. 10,000 psi wasn't even enough pressure for properly compact pyrodex pellets when I was bored and tried it, I have not tried more pressure with pyrodex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 The 116 fuse powder is actually ground to 7FA with no fines or powder. There is some powder mixed in the BP but that is more because of the grains rubbing each other. If you ball mill the 116 for a few minutes, it becomes a fine powder ready for whetting and granulating. These granules crush easily and will consolidate easily at 4000 lpi. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) So then, you are saying to ball mill the 116 first THEN use it as fuel, right? What about commercial Meal-D? Seems when I read the stick on labels better there is a can of Elephant Meal D in there with the three cans/pounds of 116. Heck, it was given to me cheap since he hasn't use for t anymore in his reenacting. Anyway since I have it I thought I should give it a try in these little rockets at least. I have made my own BP out of everything from commercial airfloat to willow and balsa and have shot plenty of commercially made BP out of my various guns but I never thought to use commercial stuff for rocket fuel. I have used it, back in my first few shells, for lift & burst but that was all 2Fg down to 4Fg Goex BP. My shooting favorite has always been Elephant but some folks tell me it isn't as hot as Goex & others so I have just ben shooting it until getting this 116 FPBP and a pound of meal-d. So if you have info I need to make this work better or easier, I'm all ears. do you think either the 116 or the meal-d will have enough oomph to lift one of those little 7/8" plastic or paper shells as a header? Edited June 5, 2012 by warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juiceh Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 The 116 fuse powder is actually ground to 7FA with no fines or powder. There is some powder mixed in the BP but that is more because of the grains rubbing each other. If you ball mill the 116 for a few minutes, it becomes a fine powder ready for whetting and granulating. These granules crush easily and will consolidate easily at 4000 lpi. -dag Good to know. I've never used fuse power , only read about it. How much pressure do you need to use to consolidate it if you don't ball mill & regranulate it though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) So then, you are saying to ball mill the 116 first THEN use it as fuel, right? What about commercial Meal-D? Seems when I read the stick on labels better there is a can of Elephant Meal D in there with the three cans/pounds of 116. do you think either the 116 or the meal-d will have enough oomph to lift one of those little 7/8" plastic or paper shells as a header? Elephant 116 Fuse Powder is almost exactly equivalent to my scratch made 60:30:10 BP and GOEX BP is (in the correct mesh) is almost as fast as my scratch made 75:15:10. Meal-D is just 75:15:10 in -7FA with the fines. With a nozzle, a 1/4" rocket will easily lift a 7/8" header and with a top lit, nozzled Meal-D rocket, it will list a 2" ball shell to a respectable height as well. Of course, your mileage may vary... @Juiceh, I use 9000 LPI on the fuse powder -dag Edited June 5, 2012 by dagabu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 A 2" shell on a 1/4 rocket... It seemed odd to me when Steve M told me about another customer lifting them with whistle. I have some meal-d, a grocery sack full of class c ball shells, and a shoot this weekend. I don't doubt you Dag, but I can't help but thinking it won't get much more than 50 ft up. That would be appropriate for a festival ball though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 A 2" shell on a 1/4 rocket... It seemed odd to me when Steve M told me about another customer lifting them with whistle. I have some meal-d, a grocery sack full of class c ball shells, and a shoot this weekend. I don't doubt you Dag, but I can't help but thinking it won't get much more than 50 ft up. That would be appropriate for a festival ball though. I have to check but I think there was a video posted recently with just that. Oh, by the way, when I say 2" ball shell, that is a festival ball shell, 2" nominal. Nate, we have a saying at home and where I work, "Trust but Verify". I may say some pretty far fetched stuff and there may be doubts about its validity so to "Trust but Verify" is a very good thing to keep in mind. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Dag, I'll take the challenge. Meal-D, nozzle, 32.2g consumer ball shell. Still not completely convinced it will fly all that well, but there is only one way to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Dag, I'll take the challenge. Meal-D, nozzle, 32.2g consumer ball shell. Still not completely convinced it will fly all that well, but there is only one way to find out. I found that the delay was the most important part, if the delay is a second too long, it round trips. I launch 1" crossetts with most of the time, they weigh 25g. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I found that the delay was the most important part, if the delay is a second too long, it round trips. I launch 1" crossetts with most of the time, they weigh 25g. -dag Delay is 2 increments of meal-d above the spindle. I trimmed the visco time fuse as short as I could against the shell. A round trip would be unfortunate, but will still prove the lifting ability. Even though it is a color shell, I'll probably fly it during the day so it is easier to track or find if I have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Delay is 2 increments of meal-d above the spindle. I trimmed the visco time fuse as short as I could against the shell. A round trip would be unfortunate, but will still prove the lifting ability. Even though it is a color shell, I'll probably fly it during the day so it is easier to track or find if I have to. Looks like I need to eat some crow here. I just went out and made a SBR but was missing my last ram so I chucked up some stock and turned it down to .25"... Oops, the tubes I am using are .3125" or 5/16". I gotta pull back on my statement now since the amount of fuel will be a lot less. It looks like I made a copy of the SBR tooling for my 5/16" tubes and I see now that I don't have a single .25 tube. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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