What is the best glue for cardboard/paper tubes rolling

[Mixer]

Off to the workshop tomorrow to squeeze the hell out of some tubes!

[Col]

The water / adhesive ratio will be the same The wickes glue will put 81% water into the paper no matter how little you apply.

[Mixer]

The water / adhesive ratio will be the same The wickes glue will put 81% water into the paper no matter how little you apply.

Yes as a water/paste ratio, but the less paste applied will mean less water in the paper.

[dagabu]

I located my conveyor rollers and and working on a mock-up for a tube roller, I'll more than likely will use a standard plug-in electric drill to drive the mandrel until I have a fixed solution for rolling tubes.

[Col]

Yes as a water/paste ratio, but the less paste applied will mean less water in the paper.

lol, the limitation is you have to use whatever amount of active adhesive is needed to get the job done, you dont get a say on the water cos the ratio is fixed If the 19% wickes and 29% polycell have a similar viscosity you`ll be better off using the polycell. The tubes will be more stable from the mandrel and wont take as long to dry. You might get away with rolling the tube in one go which saves time

[Mixer]

lol, the limitation is you have to use whatever amount of active adhesive is needed to get the job done, you dont get a say on the water cos the ratio is fixed If the 19% wickes and 29% polycell have a similar viscosity you`ll be better off using the polycell. The tubes will be more stable from the mandrel and wont take as long to dry. You might get away with rolling the tube in one go which saves time

 

True, but there is no limitation for me because as I stated earlier this paste fulfills all my needs as is, so the water content is perfect.

Although there is no hurry when I roll tubes the Polycell is a bit more work to spread, so it`s a trade off as to which one i use, but I can get a great tube from either one.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Mixer

[dagabu]

[dagabu]

From post #36 on hand rolling paper tubes, Col writes, "That way, the tube will be halfway dry and dimensionally stable by the time you push it off the mandrel." That is what I am getting with my tubes when rolled in increments. I can see the darkening of the paper as I roll them with the board.

[Col]

I roll the tubes in one go. I tried it with the wickes paste and the tube is still pliable after sitting for 2 days at room temp. Incremental rolling is the best option but i think i`ll be sticking with the gravy (no pun intended)

[dagabu]

WOW! I have 9% moisture and hard single plys the next morning. Do you blow air over them or just static drying?

[Col]

I normally just leave them sitting, no special treatment. The tubes come off the mandrel more or less dry because the glue doesnt have that much water in it to begin with. Ot was 42% (58% solids) .but i have a sample on the go to see if/how its changed after sitting in the bottle for 18mths.

[Mixer]

I roll the tubes in one go. I tried it with the wickes paste and the tube is still pliable after sitting for 2 days at room temp. Incremental rolling is the best option but i think i`ll be sticking with the gravy (no pun intended)

That`s why I don`t roll in one go. Apart from the fact that I can`t as my roll is 24" wide.

[dagabu]

I have a drying racks (very hi-tech) for 16, I roll a batch a day, 16 tubes a day isn't bad through put. The goal is to press 100 rockets at one go this spring for a class. Everything has to be solid!

[Col]

That`s why I don`t roll in one go. Apart from the fact that I can`t as my roll is 24" wide.

i dont have 9ft-12ft wide rolls, just standard 2ft ,3ft and 4ft

[Mixer]

i dont have 9ft-12ft wide rolls, just standard 2ft ,3ft and 4ft

I know Col,

but my method is different, and suits me just fine as it gives me complete control over all aspects from start to finish. IIRC we did that to death many posts ago.

[Col]

If your happy with it thats what counts I`m never happy and am always looking for ways to improve on the process or outcome. All things being equal, the glue makes the biggest difference. The wickes paste is a backward step for me because its makes the process slower and more labour intensive. The guys at NEPT would say the same for my method

[Mixer]

Interesting how we differ. The Wickes paste makes the process faster and less labour intensive for me.

I could write a whole page on the intricate reasons why - the main one is our methods are different.

Yes, I agree NEPT would say that, but they machine roll and I hand roll.

Each to his own, nothing to prove here

[Col]

I located my conveyor rollers and and working on a mock-up for a tube roller, I'll more than likely will use a standard plug-in electric drill to drive the mandrel until I have a fixed solution for rolling tubes.

If its a 3 roller arrangement, a handle will give you more control. The first sheet will take about 14 turns, 2nd sheet 13 turns and 3rd sheet 12 turns with a 3/4" mandrel.

[Col]

 

Interesting how we differ. The Wickes paste makes the process faster and less labour intensive for me.

I could write a whole page on the intricate reasons why - the main one is our methods are different.

Yes, I agree NEPT would say that, but they machine roll and I hand roll.

Each to his own, nothing to prove here

 

Took me at least a minute to brush the wickes onto a 3ft x 8" strip of kraft evenly. I tried using the roller but it put on way too much. With the gravy the same sheet takes 2 swipes, maybe 10 seconds which gains a good 50 seconds for rolling the sheet. The water content of the gravy is equal to using about 5 teaspoons of wickes paste per m2, the paper is sticky but barely damp so theres no waiting for the tube to dry before rolling the next sheet.

[dagabu]

Considering my hands are not able to do a lot of intricate work, a drill sounds like a much more appropriate tool for burnishing the tube once rolled. Perhaps a combination of a crank to get the paper on the mandrel and the drill for the burnishing?

[dagabu]

I successfully mixed the Roman 880 paste mix with the PVA mix with no adverse effects.

 

I also discovered that the Roman 880 has the tenancy to distort the tubes into an oval shape when drying. The PVA remained nearly circular.

 

I am hoping that a combination of the PVA and Roman 880 will give me what I'm searching for.

[Mixer]

Took me at least a minute to brush the wickes onto a 3ft x 8" strip of kraft evenly. I tried using the roller but it put on way too much. With the gravy the same sheet takes 2 swipes, maybe 10 seconds which gains a good 50 seconds for rolling the sheet. The water content of the gravy is equal to using about 5 teaspoons of wickes paste per m2, the paper is sticky but barely damp so theres no waiting for the tube to dry before rolling the next sheet.

Ah well there you go differing methods different times, but how long does it take to load that roller and how long does it take for your cleanup afterwards. My strips take about 10 seconds to paste - but of course I have had a lifetime of working with paper, brushes and paste - it was my job. My cleanup is done in 30 seconds - one brush and a couple of worktop swipes with a damp sponge.

But times aren`t really an issue with me.

 

Damn I could have rolled a tube in the time it took to write this!!

Edited December 20, 2018 by Mixer

[Col]

lol using the roller manually, without the peristaltic pump, cleanup takes 5 minutes, just involves disassembling it and running the stainless and pile rollers under the hot tap. Loading the roller is pretty quick, manual use involves squirting the glue from a washing-up liquid bottle into the nip point of the two rollers. The pile on the roller is only 3mm thick so it doesnt take a lot to load it. Using it with the pump is similar, except the glue is pulled from a 5L container and fed to the rollers when you press a button.

[Col]

Considering my hands are not able to do a lot of intricate work, a drill sounds like a much more appropriate tool for burnishing the tube once rolled. Perhaps a combination of a crank to get the paper on the mandrel and the drill for the burnishing?

That would be the best bet. Depending how you plan to get the first turn onto the mandrel, a drill would likely create wheelspin and throw the alignment. You could use a slow speed drill but then you may as well use a crank

[dagabu]

That would be the best bet. Depending how you plan to get the first turn onto the mandrel, a drill would likely create wheelspin and throw the alignment. You could use a slow speed drill but then you may as well use a crank

 

Not sure what you mean by wheelspin and throw the alignment?

 

The mandrel will be pinched between three rollers, it will free float, the bottom two rollers will be static and will almost touch (I will be able to roll 3/8" up to 1" with this layout) and the third will be hinged with long arms and have a handle allowing down-force to be applied at will. I will play with weights on the handle to see if I can find the perfect compression.

 

The coupler to the drill and mandrel will be a simple 3 piece flexible coupler seen below, a motor (probably an old drill i no longer use as it is corded) will be permanently mounted on a wedge base with the base plate the same length as the top roller arm to ensure alignment to any mandrel size, hinged at the arm pivot with a simple threaded rod and a simple window crank handle like the one below to adjust the plate height when changing from one layer/size mandrel to another.

 

I use these flexible couplers for driving grinders etc. They eat up vibration, allow for misalignment and provide for quick detachment from the roller bed. a simple delrin stop at the far end keeps it tight against the jaws. This design is perfect for belt grinders (knife making) to swap out the drive wheel on the fly.

 

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Catalog/Catalog291-140.pdf

 

https://www.amazon.com/Prime-Line-Products-7007-Window-Diecast/dp/B000I1QBKO/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1545319939&sr=8-7&keywords=crank+handle

 

A good friend made this tube roller a few years back, the design is solid and can be powered, this is just his match pipe roller, grain direction is not important. You get the idea though.