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What is the best glue for cardboard/paper tubes rolling

tube rolling glue paper cardboard

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#1 pyrosailor99

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:51 AM

Hi all!

I was wondering what is the best glue to paste paper and cardboard used to make paper tubes.

In some youtube videos of rolling machines i see they have a yellow dense glue that stand and slide on the rolling paper while the machine roll it against a metal tube.

the tubes so formed seems to be already finished and are not wet... instead my tubes made with PV Glue (white glue for wood) are ever wet and take days to dry 100%
Pro-tubes are also extremely stronger than mine also if made with low-quality paper (i instead use HQ kraft paper!)

what could be that yellowish glue?

see the glue here in this video. time 1:51


Edited by pyrosailor99, 16 October 2012 - 06:48 AM.


#2 dagabu

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:38 AM

Thats a pretty typical spiral wound paper tube they have going there and the brown blue could be just about anything but keeping in mind the cost of PVA glues vs simple starch glues, it is probably a rice starch glue being used.

I have seen almost all of the possible types of glue used to roll tubes up with, they all have their place as long as they whet in enough to do a good job holding the paper fibers together. It is more of the particular method one uses to make the tube then it is the actual glue, in many cases that make for the strongest tubes. To get dryer tubes, use a dryer glue or preglue the sheets, let them dry and use glue sparingly to roll them up.

If you have ever used the NEPT tubes, you will find that they use the highest quality kraft paper there is, the same as the ESTES rocket motors. The pyrotubes are made from chipboard and almost anybody can make a better tube by hand.

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#3 Mortartube

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:00 AM

If your tubes are ever wet with PVA, then you are using too much.

Add a small amount of water to PVA (around 3%) stir it up and apply it with a paintbrush. If you put the watered down PVA in an old jam jar, scrape off much of the PVA that is on the brush, on the edge of the jar, before applying it. As you would if you were painting with gloss paint.

Brush the strip of paper with a thin layer. If you are using thin papers such as thin Kraft or copier paper. Roll almost immediately. If you are using thick papers, leave it for 20 seconds or so to soften the paper a little.

Make sure that you also apply plenty of glue to the rolling rod. This should be metal or plastic. If you are using wood. You can run strips of PVC insulating tape along the length until it is covered. Then paste the tape. This also allows for shrinkage if you are using the same sized dowel for drifts.

Don't make up more glue than you think you will use in a ten minute period until you get proficient. Wash the brush and jar out with water as soon as you have finished. Until I dropped it recently. I had the same jar on the go for about 5 years.

Plastic garden sieves are useful for chucking tubes in to dry. Stand them on a couple of blocks of wood so air can circulate. Dry at room temperature.

#4 Mortartube

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:17 AM

I meant to add that the glue in the video is probably a dextrin based glue for ordinary tubes for carpets and postal tubes etc.

#5 Col

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

Its best to let virgin kraft sit for a minute before rolling it otherwise it can cost you some burst strength when its dry. You cant wait with imitation kraft because it tends to fall apart when its wet. I`ve switched from pure pva to using a blend of pva and wheat starch.

#6 dagabu

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:00 AM

Col, this is a very old thread but to continue our discussion, I see you had combined the wheat starch and PVA, is that still your go-to? 


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#7 Mixer

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 06:35 AM

Col, this is a very old thread but to continue our discussion, I see you had combined the wheat starch and PVA, is that still your go-to? 

For hand rolling I would avoid PVA entirely - it`s inferior for workability and the best strong tubes. Even when dry it`s pliable.

 

Dextrin is great, but a nightmare for hand rolling!


Edited by Mixer, 30 November 2018 - 06:37 AM.


#8 Col

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 08:18 AM

The pva adds tack and increases the solids content of the wheat starch. Neat pva woodglue is typically 50% solids, if you try to make wheatstarch that strong you`ll end up with a solid block ;)  Starches and silicates cope a lot better with heat than pva but they also have pro`s and cons. Dextrin is great for glue from a solids point of view, but hard to work with due to the extreme level of tack and short open time where It can go from super tacky to nothing pretty quick. The solubility of dextrin varies,the commercial stuff is usually better than homemade using the standard baking method. Mix some dex with water and if it seperates and floats to the top after a few hours its not ideal for making glue.


Edited by Col, 30 November 2018 - 08:19 AM.


#9 dagabu

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 11:56 AM

I have 50 lbs (22.7k) of white dextrin but it has zero tack and fractures under pressure. I was told that boiling it may induce the tack but I am afraid of the fracturing.

 

I would really like to feed the stock through a gluer and roll the tubes from there but the cost is prohibitive for units larger than 27 cm across. 


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#10 Col

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:15 PM

I havent used white dex so i cant help much, i`m sure there must be some common substance out there that would act as a plasticizer to combine with it. Best bet for a gluer is to keep an eye on ebay, i bought a Rollataq 12" motorised unit for under 40 quid ;)

 

Edit: Adding sodium metaborate upto at 10% of the dry weight of the white dex may help with the tack. Sucrose or suger can be used as plasticizers. Might be worth doing a few tests.


Edited by Col, 01 December 2018 - 05:21 AM.


#11 BetICouldMake1

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 09:32 PM

Glycerin or sugar can be used as plasticizers. Adding bentonite can also help improve slip.

This is a good read for making starch/ dextrin glues. https://www.adhesive...based-adhesives

#12 dagabu

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 07:37 AM

I was thinking about sugar to but it is just as fracture-able as the dextrin which draws me away from it. As far as slip goes, I have no issues with slip at all. I can redirect and roll tubes straight with either adhesive.

I can tell you for sure that PVA and white dextrin make slime! Great for the granddaughter but absolutely worthless for anything else.

 

gallery_9798_257_408036.jpg


Edited by dagabu, 06 December 2018 - 08:11 AM.

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#13 Col

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 08:11 AM

 I`d compare a straight dex tube to a 90/10 dex sugar tube. The sugar will tie up the water so it cant be absorbed into the paper without the glue.



#14 BetICouldMake1

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 08:47 AM

Per that article you could try adding borax.

"Frequently, dextrin adhesives-and sometimes starch-based adhesives-are formulated with borax (sodium tetraborate) to obtain high tack at moderate concentrations and viscosities with good aging characteristics. They also have good adhesion and machining properties. The borax is generally added in amounts of up to 10% based on dry starch. Sodium hydroxide is also added to convert the borax to the more active sodium metaborate. Applications include case sealing, carton sealing, bag seams, tube winding and laminating."

Not sure how essential the sodium hydroxide is. My loose understanding is that it creates stronger bonds between the starches per this article on making noodles :) https://www.thestar....ts-of-starches/

Sorry for all the arm chair advice. I've recently gone down the glue rabbit hole myself and figured I'd share some of what I've found that might help give direction to trial and error experiments.

#15 Col

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 09:19 AM

I`m not sure how beneficial it`ll be as a plasticizer, dag`s white dex seems to be ok in the tack department. I have metaborate but no white dex or i could test it out.

 

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#16 BetICouldMake1

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 10:44 AM

"I have 50 lbs (22.7k) of white dextrin but it has zero tack"

Just thinking the sugar+borax might yield a good tack/viscosity without being brittle. Just speculation, but faster gel from borax could keep more glue on the surface, less shrinkage and stronger bond.

Edited by BetICouldMake1, 06 December 2018 - 10:45 AM.

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#17 Col

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 11:22 AM

ahh, apologies i should have gone to spec savers ;)

Borax.sugar should be on the "give it a go " list then.  Might be worth adding a little CMC to thicken it up and provide more flexibility. It works wonders for blackmatch slurry coating properties.   



#18 dagabu

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:53 PM

I appreciate knowing what the heck happened to my liter of white glue!  :P

 

The wife told me to throw it away, apparently the texture is not of her liking!  ;)

 

Per that article you could try adding borax.

"Frequently, dextrin adhesives-and sometimes starch-based adhesives-are formulated with borax (sodium tetraborate) to obtain high tack at moderate concentrations and viscosities with good aging characteristics. They also have good adhesion and machining properties. The borax is generally added in amounts of up to 10% based on dry starch. Sodium hydroxide is also added to convert the borax to the more active sodium metaborate. Applications include case sealing, carton sealing, bag seams, tube winding and laminating."

Not sure how essential the sodium hydroxide is. My loose understanding is that it creates stronger bonds between the starches per this article on making noodles :) https://www.thestar....ts-of-starches/

Sorry for all the arm chair advice. I've recently gone down the glue rabbit hole myself and figured I'd share some of what I've found that might help give direction to trial and error experiments.


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#19 dagabu

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:58 PM

Sounds like a plan! I have nothing at all planned for the Dextrin, it was a buck a pound and I can make TONS of sparklers with it if I choose to so its not going to be wasted but I sure would like to use it for tubes if I can find a way to make it work.

 

A side note: The white dextrin takes hours to fully swell up and become tacky, boiling or heating seem to have no effect on this, time or tackiness. As you see, white glue was a bust as an additive so sugar may be my next shot at finding a good use for this. I do have a concern though, will the sugar attract rodents and bugs? 

 

"I have 50 lbs (22.7k) of white dextrin but it has zero tack"

Just thinking the sugar+borax might yield a good tack/viscosity without being brittle. Just speculation, but faster gel from borax could keep more glue on the surface, less shrinkage and stronger bond.


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#20 Col

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 01:52 PM

It shouldnt as there isnt a lot and i guess bugs wouldnt be too keen on the borax.

Formula A on page 4 might be worth a try.

http://www.pyrobin.c...s - article.pdf





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