Flash powder safety

[MWJ]

Thanks you vary much Mumbles, It's so nice having this forum and all of you to ask to keep safe. This is what makes this hobby fun and not so scary to play with.

[Ubehage]

Hey there, fellow pyro-entusiasts

Let me start by saying, that I am a novice! Not a complete n00b, but close. My knowledge comes mostly from Youtube and this forum, and my experience is 30 years of doing stupid stuff with retail-fireworks, and now 7 months of actually trying to make something useful.

I have always been aware of the dangers, and doing whatever I can to prevent them. After reading at this site, my skills on that matter has improved a lot!

What I am trying to say is, that I am complete aware of the fact that I'm a novice, and whatever I have to say, will propably be seen as less important to you.

 

Anyway... Back to flash:

Being well-aware of the dangers, I have never tried making "real" flash. I have only used Blue Aluminum, in a 7/3 mix.

 

After discovering how it worked, and how IMMENSELY POWERFUL it is, I decided to make a lot of testing.

Using very small badges (starting with 0.1g, and working my way up as I discovered what it could handle), I found out that it is infact very impact-safe.

If you use "safe" tools (Aluminum against paper/wood, and NEVER metal against metal, or wood against wood), then I haven't succeeded in making it ignite, no matter how hard I rammed it.

It is also pretty hard to ignite with a normal flame. I haven't found the exact ignition temperature - it takes several seconds to make it ignite with a normal lighter.

 

Should you ignite it somehow, it will burn nice and slowly. There will be a white flame, and sparks flying 3-4cm away from the flame. It will not explode.

To make it explode, you need to pressurize it and ignite it; encase it and light a small amount of black powder.

Also, as it explodes, the pressure will obviously rise. As soon as the casing is shattered, the pressure will drop - and any unexploded flash will remain unexploded.

 

That is propably the safest flash I have known about.

[dagabu]

Yup, that's the point of the "blue" aluminum Ubehage. Don't try that with normal 70/30!

[TheExplosionist]

Maybe it's better to use large batches. Large enough to be painless if it all goes up.

I'd rather die instantly in an explosion than wake up with a burnt face, no hearing or no fingers.

[Ubehage]

Maybe it's better to use large batches. Large enough to be painless if it all goes up.

I'd rather die instantly in an explosion than wake up with a burnt face, no hearing or no fingers.

That has always been my way of thinking: Play it safe, or go all the way. Don't wake up and regret!

[dagabu]

Maybe it's better to use large batches. Large enough to be painless if it all goes up.

I'd rather die instantly in an explosion than wake up with a burnt face, no hearing or no fingers.

 

I can honestly say that this has not been my experience with BP but 'F' is a completely different animal for sure and I agree that I would rather be gone than loose appendages.

[schroedinger]

On the other hand storing flash isn't a great idea too, why not make it in a way that you wont lose anything (use propper ppe, keep batches in the right size for the used method, on big ammounts use the binary method, blue aluminium, Terephtalic acid flash etc.) sounds much more interesting to me.

[Nessalco]

TPA flash is great stuff. Good report, though there is a reduced visual effect. Over the winter I'm going to be experimenting with both different metals in the comp (MgAl and Mg were both cited in the original patent as useful components), and granulation with 2% NC (as described in the patent). I intend to test it as a break booster - the advantage over normal flash being the reduced light output and the possibility of safely granulating the mix.

 

KO

[mikeee]

We had a club shoot last weekend and had a number of large bottom shots filled with TPA.

Very impressive stuff to say the least!!!! Solves a number of concerns with larger cylinder shells with bottom shots.

 

Mike J.

[nater]

Any leads where to get TPA consistiently?

[Jakenbake]

www.undergroundgadgets.com

[ddewees]

Hunter had some, which I believe came from cracker... not sure how much is left though.

[nater]

Hunter is out of it. While I have never had a poor experience with Cracker, I was wondering if there was another source. Since it is heavily used in the plastic industry, I would have thought more would be available in the suplus market where most of our supplies come from.

[Shadowcat1969]

FlaMtnBkr might have another supplier, he's been talking up TPA for a couple years now.

 

I must say that I like it quite a lot as well, and am also keeping my eyes open for a steady, reliable supplier. I got my first couple pounds from Hunter.

[Jbeard]

Hunter is out of it. While I have never had a poor experience with Cracker, I was wondering if there was another source. Since it is heavily used in the plastic industry, I would have thought more would be available in the suplus market where most of our supplies come from.

 

Wish I could say the same. I placed an order on 12/30/14 and it has still not been received. I have sent multiple emails to undergroundgadgets@comcast.net with no reply, messages via the site's Contact Us page go unanswered (www.smokechemicals.com), and phone calls to the listed number of 206-307-3678 are never picked up (and the voicemail box if full...)

I am starting to worry my $84.00 already paid via PayPal was for naught...

 

Anyone know of a source for TPA that's reliable?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Jbeard

[nater]

Here is your reliable source for TPA: http://www.ihaveadotcom.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_119&products_id=526

 

I have a bucket and might be getting another one while it is around. I have some things to test with it this weekend.

[Jbeard]

Thanks for the link! I've used these guys before and they're reliable from my experiences. Nice they see they're carrying TPA now.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I think he has a limited supply so get it while the getting is good.

 

As mentioned, it is only really used in the production of plastic bottles. And while millions of tons are produced a year, only major factories use it and they buy it by the rail car full. It would really require the shutdown of a huge factory for there to be a small surplus supply on the chemical market. At least that is how it was explained to me and why it isn't easy to source when it is produced in mind boggling quantities.

 

It is really amazing what it does in the flash formulations and how slow it can burn when unconfined. And yet it is actually more powerful when confined in a salute. I personally like the 71/17/12 ratio with TPA being the later amount. It works well and isn't much harder to ignite like the higher amounts of TPA and less aluminum. I have been experimenting, using, and pushing it's use for quite a while now. It's nice to see it's finally gaining some popularity since it does help decrease the risks of one of our most dangerous compositions.

 

It also makes a pretty good white smoke that is also used by the US military in practice smoke that is less toxic than wartime HC smoke.

 

As for Cracker, I have bought tons of stuff from him and it has always been a side job, but I think he may be having some more serious problems right now. He suggested some things may have been going on a while ago and it seems they may have caught up with him.

 

I'm not making excuses for him as he owes me quite a bit of stuff from a couple orders starting a long time ago. If he does come back from this, I expect I will likely get what I ordered or a credit, and I would think others will too.

 

Hopefully he gets through whatever he is having problems with and has enough customers left to pick back up. With his great prices I imagine he will be able to pick up where he left off. I know he isn't handling things very well, but that doesn't always happen when something major comes along in life.

[Nessalco]

You sold me on TPA flash, Fla, and thank you. I use 70:15:15 just because it's easy to remember - and it's quite close to a stochiometric mix.

 

Kevin

[nater]

I have also been using 70/15/15, because it is easy to remember. Phil said is looking for a steady source, but I would order some while you can in case it does not turn out. I made and fired a few 2" salutes yesterday and the others were also impressed. I really need to compare it to standard mix side by side as well as granulating vs loose powder with TPA.

[ddewees]

Firefox sells it too.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I tried granulating with NC a few times and it was a pain and seemed to slow it down too much. When I tried it without it seemed to work great and was much easier. At that point I had never met or read of anyone actually trying it except for the patent, so I didn't have anyone to ask. So I did a lot of tests and it seemed less sensitive and I couldn't find any downsides to using it only mixed and not granulated.

 

I think if granulated it would slow it down even more and the burn rate wouldn't speed up even in large quantities. I never lit more than about 4 oz unconfined and it was still very slow but someone lit 1 or 2 kilos and it did speed up a lot but wasn't devastating like normal flash would be. I think if it is granulated it wouldn't speed up in larger quantities like that. So in a production setting or where really large amounts of flash are needed it could be beneficial. Since the patent was for a production setting to make devices for the military it makes more sense to granulate I suppose.

 

Mate, if you do some testing with granulating the comp let us know what you find. I would be interested to see if you find other benefits and how difficult or messy it is for you. In my hobby uses I think either would be OK so I don't do it which also means less time processing flash and having it exposed. But I still use the binary method without TPA when it is easy to do. Mainly use the TPA flash with small inserts or when binary mixing isn't feasible.

 

I wonder where others are using it and if they use it for everything?

[Mumbles]

The granulating could have just been for ease of processing. Most things made on an industrial or military scale utilize some degree of automation. It's much easier to automate filling or loading of casings with a granular product vs. powder.

[mikeee]

Powdered materials in production machines require a great deal of added equipment to keep the materials flowing.

Powdered materials tend to slowly build up in corners and slow moving streams in the process and over time will

completely plug up the equipment. Most machinery moving fine powders require vibrators or air purge systems to

keep the fine powdered materials moving. Any amount of moisture or static charge will also cause powdered materials

to plug up a system.

 

Just like running FP through a funnel, it likes to build up in the funnel throat until it plugs up. Tapping on the exterior of the funnel will keep the powder flowing most of the time.

Edited June 13, 2015 by mikeee

[nater]

I was wanting to use it granulated to ease loading in the end of rocket tubes. I'm planning a flight of firefly to report rockets for a shoot in the Fall. After the motor and bulkhead is pressed, I can only fit about 10 grams, so it may not be worth the trouble. I am also interested if it works in small reports, like those built in a 1/4 spolette tube. A fine granulation would also make those easier to load.

 

I can certainly work with it in powdered form, so it is mostly to settle my own curiosity since the patents were written that way. I can do some testing on this next month after the 4th. For the next few weeks, public displays ramp up which is how I pay for the hobby. Personal pyro will be on hold until the holiday is past us.