My Beginning in Whistle Rocketry

[Stinger]

Hey guys

 

I recently started with whistle rockets a week ago, purchasing all the materials that I need.

 

Those were:

 

A press

Sodiumbenzoate , 45µ

Potassiumperchlorate

Aluminium Rammers, in this case 1/2" ID

A pressing sleeve made from a splitted PVC pipe and hose clamps

A good, homemade tube with 1/2" and 3mm wall thickness, convolute rolled

Iron Oxide

Lighter Fuel

Gloves

......

 

Here is my press I want to show you:

 

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4649/s8000607.th.jpg

 

Its a pretty basic design but it is doing a very good job.

It costed me nothing because a friend of mine made it

 

The press is 52lbs in total weight, so it is pretty heavy duty

I use a 2t bottle jack which is enough for such small whistle rockets.

 

I pressed 2 rockets today using the following whistle mix:

 

76g KClO4

23g Benzoate

1g Iron Oxide, red

+3g Vaseline

Vaseine was melted and then poured in lighter fuel to dissolve it.

 

Now I am thinking about the coreless whistle rockets being able to fly, what do you all think , especially the whistle rocket professionals aroud here?

My friend would like to make me a tooling for 1/2" ID rockets.

The base would be out of pretty massive wood ( Teak or Mahagoni) and the spindle will be from stainless steel.

 

Does anyone here have dimensions about the spindle length, the ID of the core etc.?

 

Furthermore I must say that I totally drifted away from salutes being more interested in the art of fireworks painting the sky

 

 

Greets and best regards,

 

Yours Stinger

[TheSidewinder]

Looks like a very nice press. Good job on your friend's part. And good job on your part for having a friend who can do that.

 

One caution, though, because I don't see one in the picture: Be sure you have a GOOD blast shield in place when pressing anything, and ESPECIALLY whistle rockets (even small ones).

[Stinger]

Thanks for this advice dude

 

The only problem now ar the tooling dimensions, I dont have that much money to buy a tooling, so I will make a cheap one as

I said.

 

I´d like to know:

 

The length of the spindle which is used

The Diameter

How much I should taper the base where the tube gets pulled on, as well as how tall it should be

 

 

Thanks very much guys

 

Stinger

[Aneantis]

Ive got some dimension for the spindle but I don't think the maker of my tools would be happy when I make them public?

A wishtle rocket without a core has never worked out for me.

 

ps very nice press .

[Zmuro]

I think this link could help you with your dimensions.

http://www.creagan.net/fireworks/rockets/stevequote.html

http://www.creagan.net/fireworks/rockets/erich/index.html

http://www.creagan.net/fireworks/rockets/whistles.html

[scrappy]

hey stinger,

the general rule of thumb for whistle rockets is a core 1/3 OD of the ID of your tube, so a 1/2 inch tube would have a core diameter of 4mm,

the taper is only necessary for ease of getting your finished motor off the spindle so 1 or 2mm would be sufficient, you also need an empty space at the business end to create an echo chamber for your rocket to whistle. you didn't say how long your tubes are so the delay size is a little harder to gauge,

also i think you may have your comp a little over oxidised as a 70:30 is probably optimum, your 1% catalyst and 3% vaseline is spot on,

take a quick looke at these rockets i was messing around with last week, one has a cu oxychloride catalyst, one has a cu (II) oxide catalyst and one has a Fe203 catalyst, and the one on its own is all three mixed together, you can clearly see the oxychloride burns out the quickest and the cupric oxide takes the longest.

these were all in a 1 inch ID x 4inch tube, spindle was tapered 9mm to 6mm 55mm long with a 3/4 " empty business end and about a 1 inch delay with a 3mm clay plug end,

 

.... 3 small whistle rockets

 

..... all 3 in one

 

here are a couple of pics,

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5054/whis...oxcychlorid.jpg .. a close up of the 3 comps

 

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6300/3x...istlemotors.jpg ..the business end

 

Edit:- sorry almost forgot.... the comp is KP :70, K Benzoate :30, catalyst :1, Vaseline :3, solvent was laquer thinners..

Edited May 22, 2009 by scrappy

[psyco_1322]

^ That 70:30 formula is a bit more tame when using benzoate, it will still fly but won't put out the most available power. The 76:23:1+3 is the more powerful of the two. Also, copper oxychloride is the best catalyst for whistle, providing the most addition power. Some people don't like the sound of it and benzoate, but I don't really care what it sounds like.

 

Using lacquer thinner also makes your fuel dry out a lot quicker, it may also produce a more powerful fuel.

 

I have a 4oz (1/2") spindle that has a wooden base plate. It has a 1/2" metal insert that the tube goes over, but the tube rests on wood. I can tell you over a few rockets being pressed it has crushed the wood, slowly, on one side a bit and the tubes no long set completely flat. If it is possible for your friend to make you a metal base, go for it. I would not need to be any bigger than 7/8" OD. I have a 1 piece spindle for a 4oz, actually the nicer version of the wood base one, and it was turned off a piece of 7/8" brass stock.

 

Now for the part that your just waiting for me to tell you...spindle dimensions.

Diameter: .25" (1/4")

Length: 2-2.5"

Nipple Height: .25"

 

Taper the spindle as much as possible, that is, if you can get it to come to a point, go for it. The taper does play a significant roll in the performance and thrust that your rocket will produce. Unless you only up a 1-2 degree taper, then it's only going to help you get it out. These dimensions near optimal for pure performance of the engine. The 2.5" long one will be closer to being on the edge, but I haven't had mine blow yet and I've pushed it trying to get it too. That was also using a salycilate based fuel, which is more powerful than a benzoate based one. If you can make a slight rounded edge where the spindle meets the nipple. It will prevent your fuel from chipping off around the core, and makes it look nice.

 

Tube length I use is 4" long for most of my light salute headed rockets. They will fly fast and far. If you wish to lift things like 3" balls or salutes, shorten your tubes up and use less delay. I usually use a stick about 22" long, and about 1/4" - 5/16" wide. Fuse at the edge of the fuel, not in the core.

 

Anymore questions, just ask.

 

 

Scrappy,

Your red iron oxide fuel looks really red, is that really only 1%? Mine always comes out pinkish. You don't happen to use spanish red iron oxide do you?

 

The spanish red is a type of red iron oxide sold by ceramics suppliers, it usually the cheaper stuff and for a reason. Its a pretty bright red color, a bit brighter than good red iron oxide. It is actually tainted with up to 30% clay, so it's really crap. If anyone comes across it, don't get it. Pay a few more cents for the good stuff.

 

Also, from the looks of your motor ends, your not getting your fuel mixed up too good. I'm seeing some white specks in the red and slightly in the green, can't tell in the other. It may have just been quick mixing for your catalyst tests. If you make your fuel by first creating a soupy mix of the benzoate, catalyst and Vaseline with your solvent (LT) you can work out most of the lumps. When you add in your perc, usually not as clumpy, it will soak up a lot of solvent and turn into more of a puddy consistency. You can usually go straight to granulation then or after a bit of evaporation, depending on how wet you made it.

 

Overall your rockets performed great. Just making the point I'm not slamming on your rockets or anything, just friendly advise.

Edited May 23, 2009 by psyco_1322

[Swede]

Excellent press!

 

One thing to keep in mind with a tooling system... it is nice to be able to do things like interchange spindles, so you can experiment with different lengths and diameters. Therefore, if you look at bases, nozzle forms, spindles, and tube supports that can be mixed and matched, it gives you the most flexibility for the $$ and time.

 

Something like this? perhaps... the nozzle former fits into a solid base, and the spindle gets inserted through the bottom of the base. A nut threaded onto the spindles hold them in place on the bottom, and also help release them by turning the nut, which retracts the spindle.

 

Just a thought or two. This is 4 ounce tooling

 

 

http://www.5bears.com/firew/nrt02a.jpg

 

http://www.5bears.com/firew/nrt03.jpg

 

http://www.5bears.com/firew/nrt05.jpg

 

http://www.5bears.com/firew/rt002.jpg

[scrappy]

Scrappy,

Your red iron oxide fuel looks really red, is that really only 1%? Mine always comes out pinkish. You don't happen to use spanish red iron oxide do you?

 

The spanish red is a type of red iron oxide sold by ceramics suppliers, it usually the cheaper stuff and for a reason. Its a pretty bright red color, a bit bright that good red iron oxide. It is actually tainted with up to 30% clay, so it's really crap. If anyone comes across it, don't get it. Pay a few more cents for the good stuff.

 

Also, from the looks of your motor ends, your not getting your fuel mixed up too good. I'm seeing some white specks in the red and slightly in the green, can't tell in the other. It may have just been quick mixing for your catalyst tests. If you make your fuel by first creating a soupy mix of the benzoate, catalyst and Vaseline with your solvent (LT) you can work out most of the lumps. When you add in your perc, usually not as clumpy, it will soak up a lot of solvent and turn into more of a puddy consistency. You can usually go straight to granulation then or after a bit of evaporation, depending on how wet you made it.

 

Overall your rockets performed great. Just making the point I'm not slamming on your rockets or anything, just friendly advise.

 

Thanks psyco i appreciate your advice,

your right on with my fuel mix, the benzoate was taking too long to fine right down so i used it as such, about 2% wasn't very fine powder but the rest was,

its funny about the colour as in the past with the same iron oxide it has been pink, but the iron oxide is high quality Australian oxide, with no fillers or additives at all,

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4205/redoxidelabel.jpg

 

 

ive never tried the formula you mentioned....76:23:1:3 but i'll give it a go this weekend,

 

yes also to the 1% in my fuel, i made up the following..175.5g Kclo4, 75g K benz and 2.5 grams of catalyst, but only i added the solvent with vaseline last, next time i'll heed your advice and add the perchlorate last

 

this is also the spindle i turned up at work,

 

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2461/1inchspindle.jpg

 

 

once again.. thank you for your advice,

[scrappy]

Taper the spindle as much as possible, that is, if you can get it to come to a point, go for it. The taper does play a significant roll in the performance and thrust that your rocket will produce. Unless you only up a 1-2 degree taper, then it's only going to help you get it out.

 

psyco,

i was just wondering about this statement, as it seems contrary to what i have been told, read and believe,

if i am mistaken i will certainly change my spindle geometry to what you have mentioned,

but it seems to me by tapering the spindle to a fine point it would create less surface area for lower thrust, and if by tapering the spindle to a point was a benifit , why does the SRB of the shuttle have a parrallel core, or closer to a parrallel core than a point ?, it is actually multi triangular shaped to create more surface area,

i can see a pointed spindle being a benifit if there was a passfire to a header, but i cant see it having more thrust for lift off,

 

Edit:- i only taper my spindle for ease of getting it off, my first ever spindle was parrallel and caused so much friction twisting it off it frightened the daylights out of me

Edited May 23, 2009 by scrappy

[hondo]

I just finished my first batch of whistle and pressed 2 rockets 3/4 id and 3.5 inches long, reading all the cautions and saying the powder is shock sensitive I poured a small pile on concrete hit it with a hammer and after the third wack. sounded like a large fire cracker going off, I now have a huge respect for this composition, not that I didnt before

 

HOndo

[psyco_1322]

Scrappy,

 

When you look at the way your exhaust gasses flow, it does make a difference. With the excessive taper, the gasses are accelerated more as they travel down and out the core. This in turn creates a higher velocity of flowing gasses at the throat end of the engine, producing more thrust.

 

Also, smaller surface area does not always mean slower rockets. If this was the case, and larger surface area was better indefinitely, then why not just make the core huge and have it take up 7/8 of the tube, leaving only a hair think layer on the walls to burn. There is a point of no return on cores, were one thing is only good for so long. Less surface area is basically a way of saying more choke for burning fuel. A 1/8" hole in fast whistle fuel is only good for about 3/4-1", then the pressure gets to high and it will blow. Where as a 1/4" hole is good for over 2". With a smaller core you can get a longer thrust time but you sacrifice that for a lower maximum thrust.

[scrappy]

Scrappy,

 

When you look at the way your exhaust gasses flow, it does make a difference. With the excessive taper, the gasses are accelerated more as they travel down and out the core. This in turn creates a higher velocity of flowing gasses at the throat end of the engine, producing more thrust.

 

Also, smaller surface area does not always mean slower rockets. If this was the case, and larger surface area was better indefinitely, then why not just make the core huge and have it take up 7/8 of the tube, leaving only a hair think layer on the walls to burn. There is a point of no return on cores,

 

 

thanks psyco, i'll make up an identical spindle next weekend and see how it performs,

 

i do understand there is a point of no return on core size, and never gave the exhaust flow a thought, but they do have the same choke but only with a pointed spindle there is less gas trying to get out,

 

i also pressed up 2 identical rockets today and fired them, both oxychloride catalyst, same spindle and same fuel weight, 0ne was 70:30:1:3 and the 2nd was 76:23:1:3, there appears to be some but very little difference by eye, but using a stop watch on the playback the 70:30 had a total flight of 3.53 sec and the 76:23 had a flight of 4.20 sec, unfortunately i don't have the set up for a static test on a set of scales to measure thrust lbs, i have to go away for a week in the bush for work but when i get back i'll make a new spindle and try the , cupric oxide, oxychloride, red oxide and yellow oxide tests 70:30 and 76:23

i wasn't going to load the results but if anybody is interested i will put them on my youtube account,

 

there was one very noticable difference, the 76:23 was a hell of alot louder

Edited May 24, 2009 by scrappy

[Zmuro]

I have a question. Here is the picture of my two tools.

 

http://www.shrani.si/t/2l/t8/1jl7y2Ef/1lb-whistle-rocket8-2.jpg

 

The one with a thinner and longer core (6x64mm) doesn't want to whistle and I don't know why. Maybe because I'm using 10cm long paper tube and there is only 1cm of whistle mix without a core, because the spindle is so long. It also burns so fast, the whole rocket burns out in 2 seconds. Here is the video: http://www.shrani.si/?3/ao/2Hm2QQAq/1-lb-w...rocket-6x64.wmv

 

What could be wrong?

Edited May 24, 2009 by Zmuro

[scrappy]

your rocket works great, your whistle problem would be not enough delay,

i did this static test a few weeks ago, its a 1" tube 4" long and 1/2 filled with no core ( just end burning) this should answer your question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZnJJIyi7mQ coreless static whistle test

 

Edit:- it has next to zero thrust which would be provided by a core running into this delay providing the whistle

 

here is the comparison test of the 70:30-----76:23

 

2 whistles Edited May 25, 2009 by scrappy

[psyco_1322]

scrappy,

 

Your going to make a new, pointed, spindle the same length as your old one and compare them? I'll be interested to see the results. That 76:23 sure did look and sound more powerful. Being that you are already using copper oxychloride for your catalyst, there may be little noticeable difference. I bet if you were using red iron oxide, the difference would be more evident.

 

I advise whistle rocketeers to review this page by Mr. Creagan, his test are some of the only documented and public info on catalysts. : http://wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rock...istletests.html

 

On a note of the rocket burn times. I have recently tried using some of my known slower fuel for the delay to try and make it burn a bit longer, rather than using a fast fuel. I seem to be having even shorter delays, so I don't know what the deal is. Given each rocket is a bit different in some aspect to help tune them in, I can not say much on hard evidence.

 

I like to shoot at night with a little salute on my rockets. This way I can throw the video into movie maker and calculate the time from flash to boom. I can then figure a rough travel distance and use that to compare my rockets.

 

Zmuro,

 

Is that the new spindle we discussed? Looks great and your motor is definitely putting out much more power. A lot of the time, the core burn portion does not produce much whistle and is more of a whoosh noise. Since your old spindle was so short, the fuel burnt up fast and it coasted most of the flight with the delay howling. If you add a few more inches of delay portion you will have a nice coasting, loud, roar of whistle.

 

------------------------------------------

 

I might go find some videos of my whistles for the fun of posting.

[Zmuro]

Zmuro,

 

Is that the new spindle we discussed? Looks great and your motor is definitely putting out much more power. A lot of the time, the core burn portion does not produce much whistle and is more of a whoosh noise. Since your old spindle was so short, the fuel burnt up fast and it coasted most of the flight with the delay howling. If you add a few more inches of delay portion you will have a nice coasting, loud, roar of whistle.

 

------------------------------------------

 

I might go find some videos of my whistles for the fun of posting.

 

Yes this is the new spindle that we talked about. The problem is that I don't have longer tubes, because I use commercial convolute tubes and they are already cut to the length of 10cm, so I can only have about 1-2cm of delay. Does anyone knows a shop of factory in EU that sells convolute tubes?

[scrappy]

Thanks psyco, that link is an excellent piece of investigation, man that would have taken some effort to do all that !

 

i can't help myself but to draw a few conclusions from that regarding spindle geometry, he does state that a thiner core gives more thrust, but his thiner core is parralell not finely tapered, " which evidently, mine is thiner in comparrison to his standard spindle of core diameter at the choke end", i also did a bit of perusing at skylighter and wolter tools to find that their rocket spindles are only slightly tapered too and not machined to a fine point, irrespective that i havn't come across a fine pointed spindle, i am intrieged by your concept and yes i will make a replica of my spindle but machine it down to how you have described, " next weekend when i get home from work",

i also draw a conclusion in respect to quieter higher pitch = faster burn, louder deeper pitch = slower burn, albeit i had drawn this conclusion from my own testing

 

Ho yea zmuro, don't chop a few inches off your spindle, just chop off 15---20mm, or get longer tubes

Edited May 25, 2009 by scrappy

[Yankie]

Yes this is the new spindle that we talked about. The problem is that I don't have longer tubes, because I use commercial convolute tubes and they are already cut to the length of 10cm, so I can only have about 1-2cm of delay. Does anyone knows a shop of factory in EU that sells convolute tubes?

 

Not in the UK but they do sell un-cut convolute tubes, at a good price. www.hobbyhorse.com

[Stinger]

Hey Guys

 

I tested my first Whistle rocket 2 days ago and I have to say that it flew

really really well!

Those things make a bored pyrotechnican addicted again

 

Here are the dimensions:

 

Tube length: 2-3/4"

Inner diameter: 1/2"

Wall thickness: 1/10"

Length of the pressed grain: 2-1/2"

Length of the core: 1-1/2"

ID of the core: 4mm

 

The tube was homemade as always, and I heard that a mix of sodiumsilicate and a low watercontent as well as CaCO3 is used in common tube manufacture, I found an original patent for tube rolling glue in the web and may look for it again if the interest is present.

 

I drilled it very carefully by hand wearing gloves and thick safety googles.

It went straight up with an loud, rattling sound followed by a long lasting whistle sound.

 

Here is a picture of the core:

 

 

And for all of you I did an impact test from the whistle mix used:

 

http://pyrobin.com/files/whistle%20impact%20test.mov

 

I will treat this stuff with as much respect as I can, especially when handling it.

May get my tooling next week so I can make them far better

 

Cheers guys and see you soon

 

Stinger

Edited May 25, 2009 by Stinger

[psyco_1322]

Nice looking motor, Stinger. If you can get some tooling made, do so, it's much safer.

 

scrappy,

 

I wouldn't pay much attention to Danny's tooling he used in the tests, it may have been made just for that purpose and not specifically for flying rockets. It looks like it was based off the "standard" whistle dimensions, which I can't really see that are capable of producing a rocket that could lift much more than a salute.

 

If you look at Wolter's page he has replace that old, lame, "standard" whistle tooling with a new "Extreme Performance" version. Part of my is glad that people have decent tooling available now. The other part is not too happy since this means there will soon be better rockets that must be faced and competed against during PGI times. I really think the way he brings it out is a crock of shit. I won't be surprised if Jim Biersach gets credit and named creator of a new "type" of whistle rockets. No one mentioned that you could have just bought a strobe spindle and got the same results, and guess what...bet it works the opposite way too. No one builds rocket for max performance. I only know of one person, besides myself, that works to tune a rocket to it best possible performance. He has done years of work on the fuel and tested spindles in every dimension, and from his work I base mine. Since he only works in 3/8" rockets there is a lot to be done on larger sized motors. Roll a 3/8" ID x 3" long tube and glue it to a 3" salute and tell me it can't fly properly, I'll tell you your wrong. If that much power can be had with that small of a rocket, what do larger ones have to offer? That's why you don't see pointed spindles. Half the people building are doing it for the cool rockets that whistle and the other half are using them as stable, powerful rockets to lift shells.

 

Zmuro,

 

You might email Hobbyhorse and see if he will ship some to you overseas. He's a great guy and according to the site, they do ship outside the US. NEPTs are the best tubes your going to get a hold of.

Edited May 26, 2009 by psyco_1322

[ausfire]

Here is my 1lb whistle rocket tooling I had turned by a mate of mine for free. The spindle is 2 ½" long and ¼" wide, I pressed a rocket last week and had the tube cut 6 ½" long I think it was to long the rocket burned for about 20 seconds and the last few seconds of the flight where spent traveling towards the ground. Anyway next one I'm pressing will be 5" long and I think ill catalyze it with oxychloride.

[psyco_1322]

Looks like some sick tooling, should make nice rockets. Uncatalyzed fuel will such, it's good for long burn time in set pieces, but lacks power for rockets. I bet you will be surprised when you mix in some of that oxychloride. You might still be able to use the 6 1/2" tubes. I use 5" tubes, but they could be longer, and my spindle isn't as good as the one you have. My sleeve is only 5" long but now I have a 6" sleeve I will surely try 6" long rockets. Get a video?

[scrappy]

hey psyco,

got home last night and as i said, here is the tooling i made today, i will pess up a few tubes tonight / t'mozz, and see how it performs

 

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/913/tap...ng1mm9mmx55.jpg

[Stinger]

Very nice tooling mate" *handclapping*

 

I launched my second whistle rocket, this time with a 45g header

and some Ti (10%) that has been added in the whistle mix

 

Measurements of the tube

 

3-1/2" long

1/2" ID

1/10" thick walls

 

Noozle ID was 4mm long

Core lenth was 45mm

The whole grain was 7,5cm long

 

The first rocket is a multibreak BP rocket with Silver tail, 16mm ID engine with a 5mm noozle and a 2" long core.

 

http://ul.to/g6hflq

 

Nice huh ?

 

Best regards

 

Stinger

Edited May 30, 2009 by Stinger