Anodes and Cathodes

[Pretty green flame]

Swede, ever thought about using glass containers, my first experiments included plastic which wasn't all that successful (the lid got soft from the heat so the electrodes were moving around).

So i switched to glass, think fishtank style (only a lot smaller for my experiments), glass won't be attacked by any of the chems in the liquor so its a good choice. The lid can be made of glass (though you can't achieve a good seal with this, atleast I couldn't) or out of some heat resistant plastic.

[s1xfiv3tw0]

Swede, are you planning on selling any of that KClO3 anytime soon? I might be interested.

[Swede]

PGF, every time I go into a pet store or a housewares shop, I am looking for big glass containers that would make good cells. Two problems come to mind, neither of them negating the fact that glass, as a cell material, is just about the best... The first is the volume. I'd really like to work with volumes of 3 or 4 gallons minimum, call it 12 liters. Fish tanks in that size are made of plate glass plus silicone sealant, and the silicone would die pretty quickly inside the cell. So it needs to be a monolithic, single piece, and that's a big jar. The second issue is placement of the electrodes. To get them into the cell, you'd need slots in the lid, so plastic would be required. Then it'd have to be well sealed.

 

If you (or anyone) knows of a source for a 12 liter or larger glass cell that could be adapted, I'd love to hear about it.

 

Another thought - pool chlorinator electrodes would work, I think. The electrodes are not cheap, but they normally come well-made, with inline standard PVC fittings for plumbing with 1.5" or 2" PVC pipe. Picture one of these inline electrode assemblies plumbed to a tank, either of PVC or glass using bulkhead fittings, and forced circulation through the cell. The hot electrolyte then flows back to the tank, where it cools and in the case of potassium, the salts crystallize and fall to the bottom for easy harvest. A pump made for a saltwater (reef) aquarium might have the needed longevity.

 

Anyway, I love any and all suggestions on this process - my brain has been in overdrive trying to come up with an inexpensive but effective cell and electrode combination. I do believe that separating the electrodes from the main cell volume would be a good way to do business. I haven't given up on acrylic, as it seems to be an excellent material, but it's expensive and tricky to work with.

 

 

Swede, ever thought about using glass containers, my first experiments included plastic which wasn't all that successful (the lid got soft from the heat so the electrodes were moving around).

So i switched to glass, think fishtank style (only a lot smaller for my experiments), glass won't be attacked by any of the chems in the liquor so its a good choice. The lid can be made of glass (though you can't achieve a good seal with this, atleast I couldn't) or out of some heat resistant plastic.

[tentacles]

The problem I see with going to large glass containers, without seams, is the same problem you get with homebrewing - there's a lot of stress in that glass! There are some serious horror stories of guys picking up carboys - even empty - and going to the emergency room for major treatment/reconstructive surgery. I've seen some pics. Nasty business. I'd think the problem could be even worse for containers NOT designed to be filled completely, like vases and decorative glass (those giant glasses at Hobby Lobby for instance).

 

Now, if you can get your hands on say a big Pyrex carboy, that might work. I have such a beast, but you'd be limited to electrodes about 2 " wide, and you'd have to fabricate a plug of some kind to fit them in, which wouldn't necessarily be too difficult. I may try it if I ever want to have a cell that large. 5 gallons is rather hefty, and it would be a bit of a pain to pour out the crystallized product at the end of the run.

 

The last thing ANYONE wants is a big glass container coming apart in close proximity, slicing ribbons, but imagine getting (per)chlorate saltwater as an added bonus! Next to last thing would be the cell falling apart without anyone nearby.

[Swede]

Cell material - based upon what I've seen so far, if you desire a personal system and don't mind opaque materials, I've found two sources of sheet PVC. I've found several references that confirm PVC plastic is an excellent choice for both hypochlorite AND aqueous chlorine, both found in abundance in a chlorate cell. Unlike acrylic, it is easy to work with, can be cut with jig saws and such, and best of all, it is not difficult to solvent weld. You can glue fittings, vents, valves, all sorts of useful additions onto the tank, drill and tap it, etc.

 

An 8 or 10 liter system will make a kilo batch in 2 days if you have the current to pump into it. Here are two good sources of sheet PVC in various thicknesses:

 

Source 1

Source 2

 

The 2 drawbacks... as I mentioned, it is opaque. Probably the biggest, the tank material needs to be kept at 160 degrees f / 71 C or less. It's on the ragged edge of unsuitability, unless you can find CPVC sheet. By keeping the tank immersed in a big tub of water, you do two things... you keep it cool, AND if a leak develops, or there is a catastrophic blowout in some way, the water comewhat crashes the system and contains the spill.

[FrankRizzo]

Why not use 5gal buckets? Most are made from HPDE, which is resistant to chlorine/water solutions to at least 120C.

[tentacles]

A 5 gallon bucket (with a good teflon o-ring or summat) would work nicely. Frank, I wonder if that Surplus Center has a teflon o-ring that would fit a bucket, they have some pretty large ones. As a side note, teflon o-rings are often used in farm (fertilizing?) equipment. Try irrigation equipment suppliers.

 

An alternative to a 5 gallon bucket is a 6.5 gallon brewing bucket. These hold 23L (~6 gallons) and have headroom for another gallon or so above that. They are also built to take o-rings. They might be a good bucket to nest a 5 gallon cell inside.

[Swede]

Looking at the homebrew market would probably reveal some pretty nice containers. I'm just a bit nervous about PE plastic. The lid from my first cell swelled, crazed, and hardened badly in spots.

[FrankRizzo]

I don't think an O-ring would even be necessary. Even those cheap Menards pails seal fairly well with the shitty friction-fit lids.

[PyroMedia]

magnesium works as an anode well.

[Mumbles]

Yes, but does it work well in a chlorate cell? Electrolysis in chem class, and a chlorate cell are two different things. If you do indeed claim to be able to use it sufficiently in a chlorate cell, might you post some reference to where you found this information?

[rocket]

magnesium works as an anode well.

 

Yes it works well as an anode, a sacrificial one. In a chlorate cell it will be gone in no time at all which is what we don't want.

[PyroMedia]

Well, magnesium is quite cheap, if you get an inch thick bar of it, it lasts pretty good.

[tentacles]

I think you need to look up how an anode is used in electrochemical manufacture - this is not a corrosion control situation where a magnesium anode is used. This is electrolysis, where you dump voltage into the anode and it breaks up molecules and creates our favorite oxidizers. Magnesium would be pure waste to use in this manner, unless you have a great need for a sludge of magnesium oxide.

 

Please inform yourself about the topic before entering the discussion. Try this site: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Cam...e/chlorate.html

 

edit: I'm not really trying to be a prick here, we're all open and welcome for new ideas, but you should read up on the basic process before you jump in with something that is ultimately off topic. (Not that we're particularly on topic most of the time)

Edited September 6, 2008 by tentacles

[TheSidewinder]

Anyone is welcome to participate in any thread, and politely educating other members about any topic is encouraged. Let's keep that in mind, please? (After, all it's the way most of us learned what we did.) You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar, too. Thank you.

[BPinthemorning]

Wow tentacles, your a menie pants. I have read that entire page for the record.

[tentacles]

TS: I did say please! Actually I didn't even know someone had replied to my reply - this new forum software does that to me quite often.. I've taken to trolling the boards and checking.. Almost every day I find a post that "view new posts" has missed for me. Anyone else had that problem?

 

Do flies taste good? Is that why people catch them? ;P

 

BP: Dann updates that website fairly regularly as new things are learned, if it's been a while he's got a page under lead dioxide anodes on his successful Ti substrate anode.

Edited December 11, 2008 by tentacles

[BPinthemorning]

BP: Dann updates that website fairly regularly as new things are learned, if it's been a while he's got a page under lead dioxide anodes on his successful Ti substrate anode.

 

Ya. I go there often. Did you see the pure PbO2 anodes? looked promising.

[tentacles]

Which, the massive anodes? I tried making one (actually dann posted it on the site... I'm flattered) and it came out excessively ugly, and unfortunately I dropped it and broke it. I haven't tried massive again since, the idea is sound enough I suppose but not very elegant. When I've got more lead nitrate/supplies I will try plating another layer of PbO2 on the MMO anode. It's waiting in my shop for wheels to turn, etc. There should be a big bag of calcium nitrate waiting for me, as well as a whole bunch of copper sulfate. (Ca(NO3)2 + CuSO4 -> CaSO4 + Cu(NO3)2 Cu(NO3)2 + Pb -> Pb(NO3)2 + Cu )

[FrankRizzo]

Tentacles,

 

Can you spare a bit of calcium nitrate when you come over this weekend?

[tentacles]

It's probably sitting in a box in your entryway. (It ought to be there by now!) It'll be the 25 pounder. I can spare whatever you need. Edited December 12, 2008 by tentacles

[Essohbe]

Going to ressurect an old thread here cause i searched and didn't find any more info on anodes...

 

I wanted to try using a stainless steel anode. Why wouldn't that work?

 

I've used it for electrolysis before, does it not work for chlorate cells for some reason?

 

 

 

Why can't you just rip the platinum mesh out of a catalytic converter to use also? Isn't that the same as the platinum mesh people are buying for anodes?

[ausgoty]

Going to ressurect an old thread here cause i searched and didn't find any more info on anodes...

 

I wanted to try using a stainless steel anode. Why wouldn't that work?

 

I've used it for electrolysis before, does it not work for chlorate cells for some reason?

 

 

 

Why can't you just rip the platinum mesh out of a catalytic converter to use also? Isn't that the same as the platinum mesh people are buying for anodes?

 

 

Oh SS as an anode is nasty, can be used as a cathode but need to be careful to get it out if the power ever goes off.

 

 

An SS anode will just corode away into some horrible yellow brown gunk that is almost impossible to filter out, not recomended at all!

[Essohbe]

Lol, really? The salt must do that to it.

I'll probably just rip apart a catalytic converter then for the platinum.

[patsroom]

Hello Essohbe I hope that you might find this useful goto the chemical section of the forum and then into making potassium (per) chlorate. In there is alot of information about anodes and electrodes. Believe me when I tell you that there is alot to read in that part of the forum and the information that you can glean from it will put you well on track for chlorate production. When the truth be told you will find that there are only certain materials that work the best in a given situation. But most combinations of material used has been tried as anodes and electrodes and that there are some that work better that others. And others that just make a mess of things making you work harder to clean the chlorate when you could have use the right ones to start with. Needless to say try to work with what will work the best with what you have...............................................Pat Edited February 9, 2012 by patsroom