jordanm Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Interesting. So would you use a dont ask dont tell approach with the inspector and just mix them with one shell or should i ask them right up front what their interpretation is? Im about ready to submit my application as soon as i get my picture taken. How long after submitting the app does it usually take to be contacted by the inspector and have a magazine inspected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) ATF inspectors don't always do this, but they have the authority to inspect any box for contents, although they usually reserve that for boxes that have already been opened, and perhaps re-sealed. They usually assume that factory packaging contains what the box label says, but ANY box that has been opened could possibly not. They do this seldom, but we could expect about once every year to have them spot-check the contents of our already-opened cartons. The last time I applied for a license was back in 2005. For here in north-central Florida, it took Washington about three weeks to process the license app, and about another week past that for the FBI to process my fingerprints and criminal background check. Then the local field office called to make an appointment for the final inspection. After that, I had my license in about two more weeks. Lloyd Edited July 13, 2017 by lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneytheman Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 U people think I keep saying I dont need a box I know I need a place im just saying a person should have the box they need to fit the stuff they got if they have like 20 or 60 or even more it should fit that it can save the person money i know this makes sense im not tryin to make homemade stuff cause its to dangerous for me a person said I cant only have salutes is it like that for any thing it have to be more then one kind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) ".....I only plan on getting 1 box of 144 1.75 salutes I dont see why I would have to waste space and money for that 1 small item "0-0Money, that's a quote of what you posted, and you emphasized it in a subsequent post, saying you don't see why you have "to waste 300 for only that one small item". So... what, exactly, were we supposed to take from that? I sure SOUNDED like you felt you didn't need a proper magazine. You do. And if it's small-enough to be lifted by two strong men, it has to be securely fastened to a floor or slab in such a way that a robber (ATF would say 'terrorist') couldn't remove the fastenings and steal the magazine. And... you're still avoiding the fact that you cannot legally BUY a box of straight salutes (or any other 1.3 materials) without an ATF license. Now... the salutes you're talking about could be (improperly) classified as 1.4G consumer fireworks. If so, and if plainly MARKED as such, and carrying a valid EX number, then you don't need either a license OR a magazine to buy and own them -- but it's still a smart thing to do. That 'EX number thing' bit one of our Chinese vendors in the butt, really bad back around 2008. He delivered an entire container (40' conex) full of 1.3G shells to the dock (in behalf of our broker in CA) with no proper USDOT Exemption number on any of them. We told him to immediately supply the correct EX number, and he called back the next day to say, "Eee Eks numbah is ONE" (that's garbage because they were then 7-digit numbers, and now longer). We had not yet paid for that container. We threatened to have it delivered directly to his business office address... and he panicked. The next day, he had a legitimate-sounding EX number. At the time, DOT still had a reasonably-accurate online database of EX numbers... so we looked up, and it was stolen from a Missouri American manufacturer. We went around-and-around with that for another couple of weeks with him having to pay dock charges, until he finally came up with an EX number that was actually issued to his company... not for exactly that device... but 'good enough'. It cost him about $6K to wait that long to get it off the dock. Lloyd Edited July 13, 2017 by lloyd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrokid Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I have a couple of simple questions I hope someone more well versed in the law will answer for me: When was the law changed to classify bulk salutes as HE? Do bulk salutes pose a mass detonation hazard? What constitutes a salute by the letter of the law? Couldn't you throw a few stars into the shell and call it strong opening flower? What is the maximum size a salute may have before it is automatically classified as 1.1g? Isn't the classification made on the basis of powder weight which translates to a de facto size limitation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordanm Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Even for a small storage container you will be paying about $300 to make it complaint. That is why i suggested the one Ridgid box that i did in case you eventually bought more you would have sufficient space to put them. If your trying to save money you got into the wrong hobby. The people on this forum burn/blow up our money for enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneytheman Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 I seen other people on tube who they didnt spend alot they bought stuff to add to the show I didnt bring up license jord cause that was my first post asking how to get it mumbles said I could use a small to fit what I needed I keep saying I dont understand why i have to waste money on a big place if its not what I need people do it all the time they buy a car they want why do I have to buy a big space if im not using it all why cant i have the space I need then when I need more upgrade to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I will admit I was being a little facetious when I recommended a 1 cubic foot magazine. The requirements for a type 1 magazine are kind of absurd for something so small. To put that into context, a 1 cubic foot type 1 magazine still requires 4-6"+ thick walls, a concrete/masonry foundation, drainage, non-sparking liners, 2 hooded approved locks, etc. and you would need to make sure it was permanently secured to the ground or too heavy to move. If you want to build a small, ATF compliant, magazine there's nothing stopping you. It still needs the proper setbacks. I will admit for a type 1 magazine that might not ever hold more than say 10lbs of explosives, the setback distances are not that unreasonable. You could probably do it on a couple of acres. I still don't know if you'd be under $300, but a jobox doesn't cover bulk salutes anyway. https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/publication-federal-explosives-laws-and-regulations-atf-p-54007/download Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllisterF Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) To get an Illinois license, you must be an LLC, (a company), and you must show proof of insurance upon application. That insurance runs between 3,600 and 4,000 per year. That makes it too expensive for a lot of folks (including me). So the way to go, as I understand it, is to become an employee possessor (or "responsible person") for a company, and shoot under their ATF license and state license. Illinois makes it a nightmare to be a pyro. Uuugggghhhhh As a fellow Illinois resident (lifetime) I feel you pain, the state is a disaster and makes everything harder then it should be... If it wasn't for the wife's job, we would have already packed our bags for Wisconsin... In addition to wanting to get my ATF explosive license, I also want to get my some ATF tax stamps for NFA weapons/accessories and although I could use a Trust or LLC 'loophole' to purchase the stamps/NFA items and store/use the NFA items out of state, and/or get an FFL and call them 'dealer samples' but in the end it's costly, a hassle and not practical to jump through a ton of hoops to do things legally in this state... Simply too much government bureaucracy in Illinois for those that want to do things 'legally' much easier to just relocate to a free state... Also I was in the business of exotic animals at one point, another huge hassle of legal hoops in the state of IL, and something I would love to get back into if and when we move out of state... Edited July 13, 2017 by AllisterF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneytheman Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Makes me sad mumbles cant even have something small under 300 even if I dont need all that space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Maybe you could do it cheaper. It's sort of difficult to really say having never done it myself. I was ball parking figures. A cubic yard of cement for a foundation, some cinder blocks, more cement and sand to fill the bricks, 2 ATF approved padlocks, sheet metal, wood, etc. Costs add up. This assumes you already have the land and a suitable place to locate the magazine. Look into the requirements. I might be totally off base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneytheman Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Could a garage work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 I built a 4'x6'x6' small 'shop service magazine' (outdoor), including the concrete base and 5-vee tin siding and roof all for under $300. This was six years ago, but surely, a smaller box could be made less-expensively, even now. It just takes a little imagination and some craftsmanship. One needn't actually buy anything but the raw materials. Money, it doesn't have to BE MADE of metal, just covered with it. My small one is 2x4 framing with OSB interior and 5-vee tin outside. Regardless of the cost of the structure, a pair of good 5-pin-tumbler padlocks and a hood will cost you nearly $75, even if you do your own welding. Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllisterF Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Makes me sad mumbles cant even have something small under 300 even if I dont need all that space See if you can join a local pyro club or find a fellow ATF licensed person in your area and rent space in their already approved magazine... But, honestly with all the balking about the few hundred dollars to build a legally compliant magazine so you can secure your own ATF license, I have to wonder if you just are not ready for your own license in the first place as IMO you have to be fully committed (both financially and responsibly) to doing it right from the start or you should not be doing it at all... Could a garage work Maybe if it meets all the requirements in the orange book for location and what not, but you will still need to build an indoor magazine to place in the garage that contains the goods... Go read the orange book, pretty much every question you might have is detailed in it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Allister, I'm only guessing, but I don't think he's ever going to read and understand The Orange Book. I wish him well. I hope he doesn't illegally purchase and illegally store salutes. Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllisterF Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Allister, I'm only guessing, but I don't think he's ever going to read and understand The Orange Book. I wish him well. I hope he doesn't illegally purchase and illegally store salutes. Based on the repeated questions thus far, I agree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneytheman Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 I just need more money bills is high for me but I do wanna be legal so I will work on it just a slow start tho I wanna know this always wondered I seen lots of people on tube who use pro stuff do u folks think the groups who do the big shows on t.v. or in the city or u who do pro stuff still like the stuff in stores i always thought that the pros not impressed with the stuff in stores no more and the people who got the license who dont do pro shows I think the same for them is that how it Is or im thinking wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMarine Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 I'm going with an indoor magazine if I get a chance to get legal. I have the outbuilding with requisite locks and non-pyro use plus I'm not going to store much at all. I only build and shoot for myself so not much space required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllisterF Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 I just need more money bills is high for me but I do wanna be legal so I will work on it just a slow start tho I wanna know this always wondered I seen lots of people on tube who use pro stuff do u folks think the groups who do the big shows on t.v. or in the city or u who do pro stuff still like the stuff in stores i always thought that the pros not impressed with the stuff in stores no more and the people who got the license who dont do pro shows I think the same for them is that how it Is or im thinking wrong I think it all depends on the individual, consumer stuff can be picked up easily and readily used without any permit hassle in many places so for a private showing up close I'm sure many pros still enjoy consumer grade stuff... My brother goes to a private 'block' party where all permits are pulled and licensed people do the show, and I believe it's about a 50/50 mix of consumer and pro grade stuff... I also know a lot of licensed pyro people that travel with touring bands and most of the ones I know won't hesitate using consumer stuff for their own enjoyment especially if they live in a state like I do with it's nothing but a huge hassle to obatin permits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starxplor Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 I seen other people on tube who they didnt spend alot they bought stuff to add to the show I didnt bring up license jord cause that was my first post asking how to get it mumbles said I could use a small to fit what I needed I keep saying I dont understand why i have to waste money on a big place if its not what I need people do it all the time they buy a car they want why do I have to buy a big space if im not using it all why cant i have the space I need then when I need more upgrade to it I just have to point this out: Do NOT assume people on youtube are doing things legally/safely/correctly. You have no idea what ATF permits/licenses they may or may not have. You have no idea if they are illegally and STUPIDLY storing display class items under their bed (I have seen this in vids). You have no idea if they even have local permits to add the display class stuff to their consumer class show (just having ATF permit is not enough in most locations, see this link for info about MI: https://www.captainboom.com/fireworks-permits). On a side note, please, please, please try to use punctuation. There is literally not a single punctuation mark in that whole quote so it took a significant amount of time to parse it even with English being my native language. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneytheman Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 Nice to know people who pro still like the regular stuff its shocking allstar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 I have a couple of simple questions I hope someone more well versed in the law will answer for me: When was the law changed to classify bulk salutes as HE? Do bulk salutes pose a mass detonation hazard? What constitutes a salute by the letter of the law? Couldn't you throw a few stars into the shell and call it strong opening flower? What is the maximum size a salute may have before it is automatically classified as 1.1g? Isn't the classification made on the basis of powder weight which translates to a de facto size limitation? Pyrokid, I missed your post, somehow, and it deserves an answer. ATF ruled them such (as HE) about 1998, IIRC. According to ATF (not private research labs), they do pose a mass-detonation hazard. Other experts disagree. But ATF has the final say on it. A Salute is a device designed specifically to make a loud report. I think you might "get away" with putting a few stars in, and re-classifying it. But a knowledgeable ATF investigator might ask about quantities, etc. (Of course, some aren't very knowledgeable, and wouldn't even question your labeling.) To my knowledge, anything containing more than one ounce of flash powder is considered a 'salute'. They aren't considered such when IN larger shells, and used as 'effects'. But stored separately, they are. I may be wrong about the powder quantity that constitutes a 'salute', but that number rings some bells. Lloyd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbiepyro Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Brad, I also live in Illinois, (😓) I was just looking at insurance, I got a quote from state farm for 850 /year. That's was 1.5mil/1.5mil (I did 1.5 because there are a lot of crops around use. Was just curious where you got your quotes from. And the second question I have, how in the world did you get a chance with Wetzel? I've been trying to set up a meeting for the past 3 months ! Lol you must have better luck than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 "There is literally not a single punctuation mark in that whole quote so it took a significant amount of time to parse it even with English being my native language."------------Star, I'm pleased that you said something about that. In reality, there are many non-native English speakers who spell, read, and write FAR better than US-educated students. As a business major in the early 70s, I was required to take several 'out of core' courses in college to "round-out my general education". Because of what was offered in our resident-center, I took "general education" classes -- attending with a group of people destined to become public school teachers. THEIR lack of language skills was appalling! They were even being taught that things like spelling, punctuation, and cursive writing were "unimportant"; that the only really important thing was what a student was thinking and feeling -- not if they were able to express it so that others could understand. They were even being taught that giving a student a bad grade was "labeling, and probably racist", and should be avoided!!! And what you just saw is a product of that "teacher mill" they created in the 70s. Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogeryermaw Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 so am i reading it correctly in that neither flash nor "salutes" may be stored in a type 4 unless they are a constituent of a device that contains other pyrotechnic elements? so even flash devices below the threshold to be classified as a salute may not be stored in a type 4 magazine? i wonder at what point it goes from a salute to a lesser classification? add some titanium and black powder? or must it perform otherwise? i suppose a lot of it is up to the interpretation of the inspecting authority.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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