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Getting a license fireworks


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#1 Moneytheman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:42 AM

So I live in lapeer Michigan its a place where they allow fireworks they do small shows on the 4th and people on the streets do em before the 4th like days before I wanted to get my license to do salutes not big ones just 2 inchers and 1.75 where would I go to sign up I know i would need somewhere to put em who would I have to talk to in my state or city to have permission

#2 Mumbles

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:43 AM

Here's a brief overview.  http://www.americanp...e_Laws/mi16.pdf

 

Basically you need to talk to the State Fire Marshall, as well as looking up any local or county ordinances.  Having a licence does not give you carte blanche authorization to fire off whatever you want.  You'll still need to adhere to any ordinances, as well as set back distances, insurance, etc.  


Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

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#3 jordanm

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:19 AM

I am in the process currently of obtaining my BATF license after many years of making fireworks legally in Michigan without storing them. By the sounds of it you are looking at just purchasing salutes and not in making them or any other shells correct? In this case you have to abide by all local laws, then all states laws and then all federal laws after that. My township that i live in does not have any local laws so they told me to just follow the state and federal laws. For the federal laws you will want to become very familiar with the ATF Orange Book at:

 

https://www.atf.gov/...-54007/download

 

This contains the federal laws. Reading through this scared me away from obtaining my license for many years but now i am finally going through and doing it. You will need to make sure you have the means to store your fireworks in a proper storage magazine, whether it be yours or you have permission from someone else to use theirs close by. A Indoor Type 4 storage container can be used for Display Fireworks which can be easily made from a Ridgid Job Box, but if you plan on storing bulk salutes you will need a Type 1 or 2 storage container. "Bulk Salutes" are defined in a number of different ways and sometimes putting one display shell in a case of bulk salutes allows you to get around this and store them in a Type 4 storage container. You can shoot me a PM if you have any direct questions that you want answered from someone locally or continue to post here and the rest of the community will chime in as well. Welcome to the forum!

 

PS: Mumbles I sent you a message yesterday.



#4 Moneytheman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:43 AM

Do i need insurance I ask to save money and I only plan on getting 1 box of 144 1.75 salutes I dont see why I would have to waste space and money for that 1 small item

#5 jordanm

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 11:17 AM

To shoot a display fireworks show most local counties require a display permit to be signed before hand, which usually they usually require insurance for. However, sometimes your simple homeowners insurance is enough to cover this. You sound alot like myself when i first got into this hobby and just wanted to add some bang to my shows but did not want to go through the hassle of obtaining a permit. What your going to find out is that it takes money either way in this hobby, even more so if you want to make your own product. DO NOT TRY TO MAKE YOUR OWN SALUTES! If you want to get into the hobby of making fireworks there are alot of great threads here that will introduce you to the art, but it takes alot of time to learn.  After you got down making star filled shells and a few years of safety and experience under your belt, then it may be ok to make a salute. The simple answer to your question is that yes you will need storage for your shells in one way or another. You can try to convince the ATF agent that you plan to buy and shoot all of the shells in the same day, however their first question will be what if it rains. You have to have a storage container or a contingency plan to use someone elses. To make a type 4 storage container will cost you about $300 on the cheapest end. You can purchase this ridgid box:

http://www.homedepot...2R-OS/300748555

Buy Two 5 pin Masterlocks to fit it:

https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And coat the inside with a spark free material like bed liner or you can use 1/2" plywood. This should pass through the ATFs inspection for a type 4 indoor magazine.



#6 Moneytheman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 11:24 AM

I dont want plan on a show or making my own just adding salutes like the small ones I said 1.75 1 box only I dont know how small the box is but its only 1 item is it a way they can see i only bought that instead and of wasting 300 for 1 small item to put it somewhere

#7 jordanm

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 12:07 PM

The simple fact is that you will not be able to buy them from a dealer without your ATF permit. To get your ATF permit you have to have storage. The only thing you can buy in the form of a salute would be a firecracker, anything larger than that requires you to get an ATF permit.



#8 Mumbles

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 12:08 PM

If you were able to buy and use them the same day, it negates the need to store them.  You'd probably still need a permit and likely at least contingency storage to go along with that.  Some suppliers will offer it for products you purchase from them.

 

You'd still need to look into whether or not you'd need a display permit in your locality.  


Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

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#9 Moneytheman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 12:58 PM

I know that jord I need one i still dont know why I need storage if I only have 1 box of 1.75 a box having 144 of em

#10 lloyd

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 01:24 PM

Money, you're not doing any of your own research.  Look up (first) the ATF regulations.

 

You're not even allowed to possess commercial fireworks (other than 1.4G consumer goods) without an ATF license.  In the case of salutes, if they aren't mixed with color shells, they're considered "bulk salutes", and MUST be stored in a suitable high explosives magazine on a licensed site, by an ATF licensee.

 

You can make your own fireworks (including salutes) on your own property without an ATF license, if you have the legal setbacks to do it, and if your local laws and ordinances allow it.  But even then, if you don't make them and shoot them the same day, then you MUST have a magazine suited to high-explosives for salutes (only) or 1.3G NOS (not otherwise specified) for fireworks other than salutes.  And, if you make them yourself, and don't go through the two-year process with USDOT to obtain an EX number on them, then ANYTHING you make, right down to a sparkler, is considered at least 1.3G, and may be considered 'high explosives' (salutes).

 

We're not 'inventing' obstructions for you, we're telling you what the laws are.  I'm in the business.  I have an ATF license.  I've read and understood the regs many times.  Get thee a copy of "The Orange Book", and memorize it cover-to-cover.

 

LLoyd


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#11 Moneytheman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 02:43 PM

Lloyd I just wanna be able to get salutes I understand its laws and I need a place to put em but I dont know why gota store 1 box

#12 lloyd

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 03:16 PM

"... I dont know why gota store 1 box"

---------

BECAUSE THEY ARE CLASSIFIED AS "HIGH EXPLOSIVES"!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It doesn't matter WHAT you 'personally feel' about them, they are a listed explosive, they are 'high explosive', and they are required by law to be stored properly in a high-explosives magazine.

 

What about "it's the law" don't you get?  For that matter, what about the FACT that they're 'commercial fireworks, and you can't buy them without an ATF license' don't you get?  If you should buy any without a license, both you and the seller have committed a federal felony.

 

I'm trying really hard to give you the information you need to stay out of prison.  If you think it's stupid information, tell me, and I'll stop offering it.

 

Lloyd  (now in his 'abrasive' mode)


Edited by lloyd, 12 July 2017 - 03:26 PM.

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#13 gregh

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 04:36 PM

Yeah Lloyd, I am not seeing the <grin> by your comments in this thread. :) Is there an annotation for a face palm?

#14 lloyd

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 05:08 PM

If I could show a palm-plant, I would!  I don't mind folks asking questions, and don't mind answering them.  But when it's "Federal Law" they're contesting, I suggest they go to "the source" (The Orange Book).

 

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#15 Moneytheman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:47 PM

I know they explosives all works is even the ones we can buy u know i know that I understand if I have a lot to store I need a place but for one small box I Dont understand I know that makes sense to u Lloyd thats like buying a fridge and only putting 4 things in it all the time a waste of money when could of bought a portable fridge

#16 lloyd

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 07:46 PM

You're still missing the point, Money!  FEDERAL LAW says, if you have a box of salutes (no matter how small), you have to store them in a proper magazine -- and 'typed' (construction, setbacks, etc.) for THAT kind of explosive.  It's not my opinion, and not even my choice -- it's the law!

 

If you do otherwise, you're committing a deliberate violation of the federal explosives act as described in "The Orange Book".  Get a copy and study it!  They're free... just call ATF and ask for one.   A deliberate violation of the explosives laws can be a felony crime.  You need to educate yourself about it.

 

Do what you want.  What I've written obviously is having no effect on your opinion.

 

Lloyd


Edited by lloyd, 12 July 2017 - 07:48 PM.

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#17 Mumbles

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:24 PM

Build a 1 cubic foot magazine if it makes you feel better about storage space. 


Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.

#18 Moneytheman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 10:02 PM

See that makes sense mumbles I dont need to waste alot cash for a box that works for me

#19 pyroman2498

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 11:07 PM

For Fucks sake go to a garage sale , buy a small job box, line it with wood to cover all the bare metal , get a small tiny shed to put it in , make your own lock cover (or buy one , i think thr proper name is a lock hood ?) and get a ATF approved lock (not that hard to find if you look into it ) . Put said job box into tiny shed (or a detached garage ) and there ya go , a cheap , small , easy to use magazine ...
This was a very abridged tutorial, do a bit more research and contact the ATF about your concerns ....

Edited by pyroman2498, 12 July 2017 - 11:08 PM.

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#20 braddsn

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 11:34 PM

HAHAHA!!!! This is cracking me up.  Money, you need to dig in and do some reading. 1.3 product is SO VERY restricted. They are, in essence, BOMBS... period. And that's how they are treated by the ATF, and the State fire marshal. On another note.... check this out guys..... I live in Illinois. I spent 2 hours with Wetzel (state fire marshal) last week, discussing how I am going to get legal for shooting 1.3. I was honest with him, and told him that I have been manufacturing 1.3 and shooting them on my property for 4 years. He told me that it was illegal. When I asked him why, he simply stated.. "In Illinois, if you have your Type 54, you may obtain 1.3 and store it... but the SECOND you fire it out of a mortar, in Illinois THAT is considered DISTRIBUTION".  You are not allowed to distribute 1.3 product in Illinois without a STATE license. He was helpful, and explained everything very clearly. The unfortunate part about this, is that in the end, the state has dominion over your private property, and that sucks.  In most other states, as long as you have your ATF license, you are good to go. To get an Illinois license, you must be an LLC, (a company), and you must show proof of insurance upon application. That insurance runs between 3,600 and 4,000 per year. That makes it too expensive for a lot of folks (including me). So the way to go, as I understand it, is to become an employee possessor (or "responsible person") for a company, and shoot under their ATF license and state license. Illinois makes it a nightmare to be a pyro. Uuugggghhhhh


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