MrB Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Actually, a bucket tank could work quite well as a water reservoir for a closed-loop water cooling system (as you described). I don't like reservoirs. (For water-cooling) They make it easier to fill the system, but add bulk, making the system harder to move, and doesn't really affect cooling performance enough to make it worth it. (They act as a very ineffective radiator. With an actual radiator in the loop, the reservoir shouldn't add, or detract to the cooling capacity.) The increased mass of water does help controlling fluctuations in temperature, but that also seams redundant in a situation such as this one. Check whether any of the feed brine will need heating before you dump heat to anywhere wasteful. Brine at 80C needs heating when you make and store brine at 20 - 30C ambient. If he's going to run a hot cell, the feed brine will should to be at a similar temperature, to maximize the amount of chloride that can go in to it. But to recover the evaporating water the steam has to be cooled. Sure, tuning the waterflow, or limit airflow through the radiator to adjust the temperature in the condenser might make it possible to fine tune so you get as much as possible, at the highest temperature possible, but realistically, even at ambient, a bit of steam will get past the condenser, and find its way to freedom. Using something like a cold water tap, and dropping the temperature well below ambient, should let you get a near 100% recovery rate, but that cold water isn't free... Cheaper to buy distilled water, and use to make new brine. Come to think of it... This cell of yours might end up being a still, with electrodes. You could make all the distilled water you want WSM.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 I don't like reservoirs. (For water-cooling) They make it easier to fill the system, but add bulk, making the system harder to move, and doesn't really affect cooling performance enough to make it worth it. (They act as a very ineffective radiator. With an actual radiator in the loop, the reservoir shouldn't add, or detract to the cooling capacity.) The increased mass of water does help controlling fluctuations in temperature, but that also seams redundant in a situation such as this one.If he's going to run a hot cell, the feed brine will should to be at a similar temperature, to maximize the amount of chloride that can go in to it. But to recover the evaporating water the steam has to be cooled. Sure, tuning the waterflow, or limit airflow through the radiator to adjust the temperature in the condenser might make it possible to fine tune so you get as much as possible, at the highest temperature possible, but realistically, even at ambient, a bit of steam will get past the condenser, and find its way to freedom. Using something like a cold water tap, and dropping the temperature well below ambient, should let you get a near 100% recovery rate, but that cold water isn't free... Cheaper to buy distilled water, and use to make new brine.Come to think of it... This cell of yours might end up being a still, with electrodes. You could make all the distilled water you want WSM.B! The thought that a highly efficient condenser could recover a respectable amount of distilled water from the process hasn't been wasted on me. I actually have two of the radiators you're describing and have been considering condensing the water vapor coming out of the cell as it runs (the way you described). I need to mate the radiator with a computer fan, for proper air cooling of the radiator fluid I use. I have a selection of borosilicate condensers I could try, or I could make a heat exchanger from scratch. We'll see which way seems best as this thing progresses. When considering setting up a prototype system, I thought of using all borosilicate laboratory glassware; and if I had a large scale reaction kettle with 24/40 joints, I would have tried it. Now that would have had the mad scientist (or Walter White) look, for sure! With everything I'm setting up, using fabricated tankage of PVDF and all the attendant hardware, it may still look like it came from a mad scientist's laboratory. As to the concentration of the brine, since the solubility of sodium chlorine varies so little between 0oC (356 g/l) and 100oC (390 g/l), I don't think the great amount of energy required to gain such a small increase in concentration is worth it. I plan to use whatever concentration of purified brine made at room temperature, I can get (probably about 360 g/l). As this thing develops, a lot of details are becoming apparent and will likely be brought into play. Thanks for all the input. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 (edited) Check whether any of the feed brine will need heating before you dump heat to anywhere wasteful. Brine at 80C needs heating when you make and store brine at 20 - 30C ambient. I'm thinking of running the setup in stages, starting at 20oC to 30oC and then run it up to 105oC to 110oC where it'll stay till the volume of electrolyte is roughly half. The next stage is to cool the electrolyte to about room temperature, let what NaClO3 crystalize out that will, recharge the cell with the "depleted" electrolyte, making up the volume lost with more purified brine and run it again (repeating as long as it will). The whole idea could work as a continuous series of heating and cooling steps, or have separate sections with pumps running liquids from one to another section during the operation of the whole thing. I believe this is mentioned or alluded to in the patent (they mentioned the application of the ideas to a batch system, a continuous system, or something in between; If I recall). I like the idea of converting their idea to something more "state of the art" by upgrading to DSA and titanium electrodes (which is my intention with this experiment). WSM Edited December 10, 2016 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 or I could make a heat exchanger from scratch. We'll see which way seems best as this thing progresses. The material needed to make a heat-exchanger, that wont add ions to the water... I think i'd stick to the glass condensers, especially if you already have a couple.Going to look forward to your mad scientist antics, remember, pictures. ;- )B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 IIRC that hot cell patent specified that the input brine was heated by the cell liquor so that temperature layering didn't happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) The material needed to make a heat-exchanger, that wont add ions to the water... I think i'd stick to the glass condensers, especially if you already have a couple.Going to look forward to your mad scientist antics, remember, pictures. ;- )B! I was thinking of making a heat exchanger using polymer pipe and tubing. I think I posted a word drawing somewhere, maybe in the blogs. I do plan to take photos so I can document my progress for inclusion in the Homegrown Oxidizers articles and also in the blogs. It should be interesting to see how this develops. More to come... WSM Edit: the heat exchanger drawing is in the Blog, Homegrown Oxidizers, Part Five, if I'm correct. Edited December 13, 2016 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Aside from the bucket tank, I'm thinking I need three of my large rectangular tanks (18" x 18" x 24" tall) set up for permanent service; one for brine mixing (preparatory to purification), a second for holding the purified brine and a third for holding potassium chloride solution. The nice thing is these large tanks have a volume of 100 liters at about the 20" level, though I may need to build an external frame to support the tanks if I fill them that much. If this keeps up, my research will end up a pilot plant instead of mere research (Hmmm, it could be worse ). WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Quit playing around. Step up, be a man, use 3 IBC's. On the upside they come with their own support structure. ;- ) Funny how these things seam to always escalate out from purely testing, to a scale that gets to be to much of a hassle, and then sort of dies of, and someone else has to start over.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Quit playing around. Step up, be a man, use 3 IBC's.On the upside they come with their own support structure. ;- )Funny how these things seam to always escalate out from purely testing, to a scale that gets to be to much of a hassle, and then sort of dies of, and someone else has to start over.B! Most of my discussion about large mixing tanks and storage is just me thinking out loud, without any actual plans to follow up on it. Since it hasn't happened yet, this is all conjecture. I could just as well make up more bucket tanks and plumb everything together with options (external valving) to re-direct the flow of fluids as needed to achieve the desired end result. IBC's? Sorry man, I don't drink . The season is upon us, so I may have to let my projects sit until after the new year (keep the Wife happy). I must be getting soft; but I do like sleeping indoors. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Most of my discussion about large mixing tanks and storage is just me thinking out loud, without any actual plans to follow up on it. Oh com on, this would look SO COOL, on your next blog update:http://www.mausergroup.com/media/20a778d8c3fa422e7667d47ee396f753/ibc.jpg Riiiight?B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 (edited) Oh com on, this would look SO COOL, on your next blog update:http://www.mausergroup.com/media/20a778d8c3fa422e7667d47ee396f753/ibc.jpg Riiiight?B! Hey, no fair reading my mind! Actually, most of the blog entries are based on articles already written for (and published in) the PGI Bulletin. I've submitted fifteen so far and most are in print. I'm writing part sixteen now. When I can get to it, I need to create more blogs from them, detailing where my work has gone in the past couple years, up to where I am now. WSM Edited December 24, 2016 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I think I need to redo the bucket tank's external plumbing to make it adaptable to the high temperature sodium chlorate cell experiment I'm working on, so I can use it for brine purification and/or brine replenishment for the cell. There's a lot left to do, I can see the bucket tank being an integral part of the setup. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Love it's simplicity,. Cost effectiveness , and availablity . The bucket cell is as simple as it gets.( aside from a populated BCA). So what external plumbing did u have in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Love it's simplicity,. Cost effectiveness , and availablity . The bucket cell is as simple as it gets.( aside from a populated BCA). So what external plumbing did u have in mind? I'm thinking of modifying the external plumbing shown in post #253 of this thread. I'm considering making it similar to the type used in my NaClO3 experiments last Summer (shown in the potassium (per)chlorate thread), where I could valve different fluid directions as needed. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'm thinking of modifying the external plumbing shown in post #253 of this thread. I'm considering making it similar to the type used in my NaClO3 experiments last Summer (shown in the potassium (per)chlorate thread), where I could valve different fluid directions as needed.IMGP7870.JPGWSM Let's keep in mind the difference between the bucket cell and the bucket tank. The bucket cell is used for converting salt solutions to oxidizer salts by functioning as a chlor-alkali cell. The bucket tank is used for mixing, holding and dispensing compatible liquids as needed for myriad purposes, not just chlor-alkali cells. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) I think the bucket tank would make an excellent bucket cell if you mind the temperature. Still, it would be wise to place it in a plastic, concrete mixing pan as a containment barrier in case the bucket should rupture (we wouldn't want to see chlorate solution pouring out all over, especially outdoors!). Our friend pyrojig is right, the main sticking point to the bucket cell is the BCA (the adapter needed to fix the components in the cell from the lid). I find a thick piece of PVC plate works well for a BCA, but proper tools and some machining skills are required to make it work. WSM Edited February 11, 2017 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joncammarata Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 This was a great post. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) This was a great post. Thanks! The one just above or all of them? You're welcome, either way. I like to share, plus putting my thoughts into words helps to clarify the ideas, and really helps me write them for others to benefit from. WSM Edited March 4, 2017 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) I think a bucket tank could work for a reservoir for the high temperature sodium chlorate cell. The idea is to pump the brine up to the hot cell and keep it there as the cell runs. If the cell has a power failure, the electrolyte can gravity feed back to the bucket tank, preventing any damage to the electrodes. I'm still thinking through the details, but it's a consideration. WSM Edited March 31, 2017 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 I took another bucket and attached it to an irrigation valve box riser, to use with some experiments I plan to try. The binder I use to hold the thing together is this product: If you can find it at your local hardware supply store, I recommend it. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) Lately, I'm seriously considering running a KClO3 cell as a bucket cell with the modified bucket/valve box riser (bucket tank) shown above. For safety, I plan to set it in a concrete mixing pan for a containment vessel in case the bucket ruptures. I think it would work well for the purpose and produce a respectable amount of useful oxidizer salts. I'll post more as I work to make this happen. WSM Edited May 16, 2017 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) Oh com on, this would look SO COOL, on your next blog update:http://www.mausergroup.com/media/20a778d8c3fa422e7667d47ee396f753/ibc.jpg Riiiight? B! Life copies art. Yesterday, I saw a heavy walled tank on eBay for $35 or best offer, in my area. I bid $20 and then waited a day, and won it. The tank is made by Nalge and is 200 gallons capacity (or 757 liters)! The tank is upside down so the right side up view is seen. What a beast!!! I plan to use it to store water; hopefully purified water (or at most it might be a huge brine tank). WSM Edited September 17, 2017 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I once had to make some 25mm perspex into precise shapes and found the local engraver perfectly able to machine exactly what I wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) I once had to make some 25mm perspex into precise shapes and found the local engraver perfectly able to machine exactly what I wanted.I was wondering how this post related to the subject? After consulting the Wizards of Google, I learned that perspex is what we know as plexiglass here in the US. That's a new one on me. I presume the idea is to use the sheet material to make a BCA (bucket cell adapter). That sounds like a good idea, but be sure the electrolyte doesn't come in contact with the acrylic type material or it may well cause it to be compromised. A good practice is to be sure the surface highth of the electrolyte is well below the lid of the cell. This will help prevent salt creep from escaping and negatively affecting the electrical connections. A compatible gasket used with the BCA also helps. Thanks for the suggestion, Arthur. WSM Edited September 17, 2017 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Life copies art. Yesterday, I saw a heavy walled tank on eBay for $35 or best offer, in my area. I bid $20 and then waited a day, and won it. The tank is made by Nalge and is 200 gallons capacity (or 757 liters)! Meh... For you, I can arrange a free IBC like the ones above. Only used once, for shipping and storing adBlue. It is available for pickup pretty much when ever you want it in the next 2 weeks. Go big, or go home!;- ) Actually tho. Good find, gratz. Sure it cant be converted in to a cell? I mean.. one batch every 5 years, and you are done... right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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