THEONE Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) It is possible to make aluminum powder from aluminum chloride ?ore magnesium powder like the zinc with chemistry Edited December 27, 2011 by THEONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) It is possible to make aluminum powder from aluminum chloride ?ore magnesium powder like the zinc with chemistry That's a good question; I'm not sure but it might be fun to try (especially if you have lots of scrap magnesium turnings available to use) . It might be easier to make powdered aluminum flakes by ball milling shredded thin aluminum foil with steel bearings. I experimented with this years ago while helping a friend do research for an article he was writing on the subject. I never saw the article but the process worked. Whether it's practical is dependent on the availability of aluminum powder in your area ! WSM Edited December 27, 2011 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I have my own questions on the purity of the resulting zinc. The same process is in theory possible for aluminum, but not for magnesium. Practically however, I don't think it will be all that that viable. Given the violence of the reduction with magnesium, there is clearly something else going on. The actual reaction should be sluggish at best. It's clear there is some excess HCl in there given all the hydrogen being given off. The reagents are cheap. Give it a shot, and let us know how it turns out. I'd love to be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEONE Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) So it is possible !! 2 Al + 6 HCl → 2 AlCl3 + 3 H2 Mg (s) + AlCl3 (aq) → Al (s) + MgCl2 (aq) But what is the formula ? How much per by mass ? Edited December 28, 2011 by THEONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 So it is possible !! 2 Al + 6 HCl → 2 AlCl3 + 3 H2 Mg (s) + AlCl3 (aq) → Al (s) + MgCl2 (aq) But what is the formula ? How much per by mass ? Balance that second equation and then determine the molar mass of each reactant. Your formula will be the ratio by which each reactant's molar mass relates to the other in the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEONE Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Balance that second equation and then determine the molar mass of each reactant. Your formula will be the ratio by which each reactant's molar mass relates to the other in the equation. I really do not know how to do that, also the HCL were i can find is a solution of 10 - 15 % Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 You better figure it out then. Grab a chemistry book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEONE Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Has anybody buy chemicals from amazone.co.uk ?I have found some here but i do not know if they are fine for pyrotechnics http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aluminium-Powder-Cold-Cast-Filler/dp/B00266808K/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1325062061&sr=8-5 http://www.amazon.co.uk/500g-Aluminium-powder-99-7%25-purity-quality/dp/B004UX3FUK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1325062088&sr=8-2 http://www.amazon.co.uk/1kg-Aluminium-powder-99-7%25-purity-quality/dp/B004UX2TDO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325062088&sr=8-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 You don't have to use magnesium turnings - magnesium scrap will work as well. I used a similar method to extract copper from CuSO4 solution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanspau Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I am by no means a chemist, just a backyard hobbyist with a desire to design, build and enjoy experimental rocketry and fireworks (not so experimental) I've been thinking of a new way to make my own Al powder. Ball mill takes forever! I have a theory I'd like to run by everyone. Is it possible to dissolve aluminum foil/stock in some sort of acid or lye solution. Pour through a filter (IE coffee filter) to render a super fine aluminum powder? Or will using this method result in making something else? I'm aware that I could buy it online by the pound but that doesn't allow me to have a "project" to work on. I'm familiar with other arduous and daunting methods of creating Al powder. I'm just looking for something chemically... All input is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 If you're dissolving it in acid or base, you're forming something that isn't aluminum powder. That is the premise of the original post. He wants to dissolve it in acid, then reduce it back to metallic aluminum with magnesium. I really doubt it will work at all, but worst case scenario he wastes a bit of magnesium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanspau Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 So aluminum chloride is like an etching type acid or base? So what is it that you get out of dissolving aluminum in an acid? Is it aluminum oxide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) So it is possible !! 2 Al + 6 HCl → 2 AlCl3 + 3 H2 Mg (s) + AlCl3 (aq) → Al (s) + MgCl2 (aq) But what is the formula ? How much per by mass ? Balance that second equation and then determine the molar mass of each reactant. Your formula will be the ratio by which each reactant's molar mass relates to the other in the equation. 3 Mg + 2 AlCl3 = 2 Al + 3 MgCl2 3 (24.3051 g/mol) + 2 (133.3411g/mol) = 2 (26.9815 g/mol) + 3 (95.2115 g/mol) Edited December 29, 2011 by Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Waste of Mg IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanspau Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I found a page that tells you how to make Al powder by dissolving and filtering. Here's the link if any are interested. http://www.tuprox.com/blog/?p=48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I would take any information that suggests adding potassium metal to a solution of MgCl2 to produce Mg and KCl3 as a bit suspect. Shanspau, the method you linked to is more than just dissolving and filtering. It involves, as I mentioned before, the reduction of the aluminum chloride back to aluminum with magnesium. Like I said, try it, but I have a feeling that that method will not work very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanspau Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Mumbles, I was speaking I'm layman terms. Essentially it's exactly that, dissolving and filtering. There isn't a simpler or quicker way to explain the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEONE Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) I would try this but i cannot find a good quality of HCL, that we have here is a solution of 10-15% and it doest react very much with aluminum at all Edited December 30, 2011 by THEONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Try a different aluminum. IE not a wax coated foil. You can also always let it react longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEONE Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) I steel dont know how much gr of al must put for (for example0 1/2 Liter HCL Edited December 30, 2011 by THEONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Use an excess of Aluminum. Like I said before, you'll need to learn some chemistry to do this. This is very simple stuff. If you're going to be messing with fairly strong acids and reactive metals, it's in your best interest to get a good understanding of what exactly is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanspau Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I really do not know how to do that, also the HCL were i can find is a solution of 10 - 15 % You can purchase HCL up to 35% at your local hardware store as a concrete cleaner or at a pool supply store. If you can't find HCL then you could use lye. You can find lye at a craft store in the soap making department. Make sure to wear PPE when using either one of these solutions. I'll be testing this process over the weekend, I'll post my findings soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cogbarry Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 This is an interesting topic for me, not because I have lot's of time on my hands, but if aluminium powder becomes hard to obtain (and it could IMO) it would be nice to know how to make my own. I think I'd prefer the mechanical method rather than the chemical method. My question to Mumbles is "how was the quality of the aluminium made from cans?". I believe I've read there was a bit to processing the dark german commercial stuff and that this powder is also coated with something. With some background as a machinist, I know that aluminium is very soft and easy to cut/machine. I would think you could simply use a file to produce a relatively fine powder or at least something that requires less milling than shredded pieces. The finer the file, the finer the powder. The biggest problem may be that you need a file brush as the aluminium will no doubt clog your file up constantly. My biggest concerns here would be with safety in using the aluminium produced this way and in quality. Does anyone have any experience/knowledge on that? By safety, I'm not referring to the danger of a fine aluminium dust cloud that could occur if precautions were not taken to prevent it. I hope everyone knows/is conscientious of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEONE Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 I know some pencil sharpeners made of magnesium, does anybody know what else is made of magnesium ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I know some pencil sharpeners made of magnesium, does anybody know what else is made of magnesium ? Go to a scrap yard and ask for it. They get it in all the time and have nothing to do with it. If they don't have any when you show up just ask if they could set some aside for you and come back the next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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