Arthur Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 If you think that a school kid cannot insert the word "thermite" into a search engine you delude yourself and shouldn't be teaching. Chemistry is now a boring subject because there are no factories producing chemical things, and no labs doing development and research. With the advent of the American invention of the litigatious society and the free compensation solicitors no-one wants to have a factory doing anything dangerous lest they get sued. That's why the Chinese economy is booming. The USA and Europe have exported all the risk to China along with all the business, profits and jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 you could use purple iron oxide witch from what i have read is mostly red iron oxide with particular impurities. anyway in my experience it has acted pretty much the same as red iron oxide and well purple iron oxide inst commonly sold but one of my local pyro chem suppliers has some and i am sure there are some over in the us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inonickname Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Any kid can type in thermite, but can probably not get a suitable aluminum. If they sand it or grind it it will be highly impure and have oxidized heavily. You can scavenge powder from some things, but it's not a simple way of getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 getting suitable aluminium wouldn't be hard for them ebay supplies it and hand filed/sanded wont work as well but would still work and google can help them but if you dont call it thermite and use something as obscure as purple iron oxide. a good redox reaction is still demonstrated with out being to easy to work out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarbelly Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 The average high school idiot wouldn't go to the trouble of searching the internet for the chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I was able to make thermite in high school from Al ground off of an ingot with a dremel. It doesn't require much effort at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarbelly Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I'm going to venture as far as to say you weren't the average high school idiot. Of course a dedicated or aspiring pyro would be able to obtain the necessary ingredients quite easily, but this kind of person would also be more likely to follow simple safety guidelines. Apologies for any incorrectness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 My opinion is that while the average high school idiot does stupid things often, they are capable of intelligence every now and then. They are human after all, and we are like that. Considering how computer literate people are nowadays (and more so with each generation, check out today's five year olds in ten years!) google is probably going to be one of the most likely first steps for people of any description, including the 'high school idiot', when trying to figure something out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarbelly Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I guess you're right. I don't know anyone who doesn't occasionally do something not idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Even I do things occasionally that are quite idiotic. I could go through my high school accomplishments and pedigree, but lets just say that it's impressive, and that it's pretty obvious I wasn't some moron. It'd be my hope that seeing the demonstration, and perhaps qwelling a few of the misconceptions would help them decide not to make any. The one about being able to burn through a car engine is one that I hear a lot that is not true. Something with the safety. Any water at all present in the chemicals or fallout area can cause it to explode and spray molten metal everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefox77 Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Okay, any kid that puts a tiny effort into it can probably figure out how and get the supplies for thermite. You can buy everything you need to make a couple pounds off ebay for $20, and they doesn't even touch on the fact that most craft stores that sell ceramics supplies don't require ID. The schools goal isn't to prevent them from learning how to make thermite. That would be foolish. Their goal is to prevent people from holding the school responsible for the students learning how to make thermite. It's a CYA society. I do intend to use the demo to show how wrong some of the ideas about thermite are. I've got a piece of 1/4" stainless steel that I know from experience can't be burnt through with small quantities of thermite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Okay, any kid that puts a tiny effort into it can probably figure out how and get the supplies for thermite. You can buy everything you need to make a couple pounds off ebay for $20, and they doesn't even touch on the fact that most craft stores that sell ceramics supplies don't require ID. The schools goal isn't to prevent them from learning how to make thermite. That would be foolish. Their goal is to prevent people from holding the school responsible for the students learning how to make thermite. It's a CYA society. I do intend to use the demo to show how wrong some of the ideas about thermite are. I've got a piece of 1/4" stainless steel that I know from experience can't be burnt through with small quantities of thermite. Use manganese dioxide thermite, and I guarantee you will have melted steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 I think Shidlovskii calls it "Aluminothermy" The masssive advantage of an all solids reaction is that little or no hot gas escapes so that no heat is carried away so that the temperature inside remains as high as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peedee Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 IMHO as well as exciting and educational the emphasis should be on just how dangerous fooling around with thermite can be. With any luck thats better than teaching them nothing and letting them find out for thereselfs when they stumble across it and decide to have a go? Lets face it, my mates were making pipe **** 30 years ago, no accidents fortunately but if it was that easy to find out the basics back then how easy is it with the net now. It's going to happen so at least have a grab at demonstrating the serious damage that can be done. Sorry if thats slightly OT to the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skycastlefish Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 If I had any information that would help you, I would share. Since I don't, I'd like to say that I am not a fan of censoring information (that is, replicable facts of life.) I believe that if it exists it is fair game. I know that’s a bit idealist, but thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I am so glad I went to a private high school!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 yep good idea lets go tell the kiddies how to make ap every thing has its time and its place if some one wishes to learn about pyro they find a pyro forum that is than the time and place. just like they don't teach sex ed at preschool it isnt the time or the place. there are things that it is best people dont know till they have a certain scene of maturity i say it might not be a great idea for johnny to go and put a pot of thermite on Mrs crababpple's car when she confiscates his game boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttalos Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 It might also be useful to use something like SnO and copper or some other metal lower on the activity series. You would have to use course powders and do the math to get the mol ratio right but you should be able to do it safely. SnO is used by lapidary enthusiasts but most students won't be able to figure that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_bab Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Copper won't do shit in a thermite type reaction. Iron needs over 1000 degrees C just to sustain a reaction of this kind, and is so much more reactive then copper. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttalos Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 That's why you would have to use something like SnO to get the Enthalpy change right. Copper won't do shit in a thermite type reaction. Iron needs over 1000 degrees C just to sustain a reaction of this kind, and is so much more reactive then copper. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Sorry, but Cu/SnO thermite won't work. You keep talking about enthalpy, but it's obvious you haven't actually calculated it or considered it. It's severely unfavored. Al/Fe2O3 thermite has an enthalpy of -850.2 kJ/mol (down hill and favored) Cu/SnO thermite has an enthalpy of +129 kJ/mol (uphill and unfavored) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttalos Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 (edited) You're right Mumbles I hadn't calculated it, I was going to look at it tonight I was going off of an old memory about where SnO is on the activity series. That's why I mentioned the metal used had to be lower on the series, Cu was just a bad example. Sorry, but Cu/SnO thermite won't work. You keep talking about enthalpy, but it's obvious you haven't actually calculated it or considered it. It's severely unfavored. Al/Fe2O3 thermite has an enthalpy of -850.2 kJ/mol (down hill and favored) Cu/SnO thermite has an enthalpy of +129 kJ/mol (uphill and unfavored) Edited October 14, 2009 by Ttalos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I was going to go simply off the activity series, which says it wont work, but I figured I better get some real data too. Zinc might be a good metal choice if you want to keep it vaguely exotic. There arn't a lot of commonly available pure zinc stocks that I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firetech Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 What are the basics and principles of a thermite reaction? And also, why does it work so well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 It's officially called the Goldschmidt reaction. It's a simple, yes impressive, single replacement. As recently discussed, Enthalpy drives the reaction. A reactive metal and reactive oxide combine to form a less reactive metal and less reactive metal oxide. It's just thermodynamics. If they didn't work the world as we know it wouldn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookieman Posted September 12, 2010 Share Posted September 12, 2010 I was watching a film last night called Conspiracy theory 9/11 with Jesse Ventura.Do you guys know of a type of thermite called Super thermite? Apparently it is in liquid form and can be painted on. These guys are talking about explosive residue found at ground zero but as far as I know, thermite is not an explosive.They claim that this super thermite was painted on the structural beams of the WTC and ignited with jet fuel.My link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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