Perchlorate - Benzoate mixtures?

[Swede]

One of my other hobbies which has brought me here is black powder firearms, like flintlocks. I have always loved them, and have built several over the years. In the last few decades, several BP substitutes have been marketed. I am trying to reverse engineer some of them, which is tough without advanced lab equipent like a gas chromatograph or other cosmic machines!

 

They include Pyrodex, Triple Seven, and other "smokeless" powders engineered to emulate the pressures of BP when used in small arms. Here's an interesting read: http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm

 

There are also several patents worth taking a look at... lots of guys have patented propellants that are not nitro-based, all of which would possibly find good use in pyrotechnic compositions.

 

A couple of days ago, I made a small mix of KClO4 : K-benzoate in a 65:35 ratio that burns with excellent speed. A search here didn't bring much up. Anyone else use perchlorate / benzoate mixtures? Or can anyone recommend a simple oxidizer / fuel mix that might be considered a "BP replacement?" I understand the normal response is "why not simply make BP?" and I agree, but this is purely for fun and knowledge. Thanks!

[Mumbles]

You might kick yourself after hearing this. That composition is much more frequently called "whistle composition". Searching for whistle will likely be much more fruitful. Mostly discussed as a rocket propellant, but also used as a booster in shell breaks and such. There is also a mixture of BP and whistle called benzolift. More powerful than straight whistle, but slow enough that the risk of violent explosion is diminished.

[oskarchem]

KClO4+Benzoate is a whistle powder

 

 

EDIT: Sorry hadent refreshed IE after leaving the computer

[Swede]

That composition is much more frequently called "whistle composition".  Searching for whistle will likely be much more fruitful. 

Hahaha! Darn it, that shows what happens when you don't know a lot of the terminology. OK, I'll look into the "whistle mix" and see what pops up.

 

That stuff burns quick! It looks quite energetic. Thank you.

[tentacles]

There has been some recent discussion as to whether or not it is more powerful than flash - It sounds pretty insane to try using it in a rifle, or gun of any kind! Also, it is quite sensitive. Benzolift might be a good option if you want to try something exotic.

 

http://wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/benzolift.html

[TheSidewinder]

Swede,

 

Fair warning, Whistle Mix is as reactive as Flash, though less sensitive. "The Rocket Boys" here use it. If CplMac reads this, he can give you a dissertation on Whistle Rockets. Perhaps you've seen the 60 (?) pound monster he created.....

[JCrewPyros]

60lb Rocket? Seriously? I haven't seen that as of yet. Is there a video of it?

[Swede]

Swede,

 

Fair warning, Whistle Mix is as reactive as Flash, though less sensitive. "The Rocket Boys" here use it. If CplMac reads this, he can give you a dissertation on Whistle Rockets. Perhaps you've seen the 60 (?) pound monster he created.....

Thank you Sidewinder. Can you explain the difference between "reactivity" vs "sensitivity" in your context? I look at reactivity as the tendency to react (sometimes violently) when outside chemicals or compounds are introduced, intentionally or otherwise. Sensitivity, the tendency of the compound to behave badly when influenced by mechanical forces, static, etc. Is this roughly correct?

 

I will never whilly-nilly mix ingredients. The perchlorate-benzoate mixture I made was a 5 gram batch, the proportions from a book on propellants (rocket fuel, gunpowder) and until I know more about how a compound behaves, they are made in miniscule amounts with the utmost caution, for learning purposes.

 

There are so many excellent books and resources available. One thing I wished more of them had for these compounds is some sort of "properties" table where it lists on a scale of 1 to 10 attributes like the two terms "sensitivity" and "reactivity" as well as chemicals that MUST NOT BE MIXED such as chlorates + sulfur.

[TheSidewinder]

Well, they both can be ignited by too much friction, pressure, heat, etc, but Whistle is generally "safer" than Flash when ti comes to handling and use. As I said, one of the Rocket gurus will, I hope, answer.

 

They both burn extremely fast. Though Whistle is slower, you still don't have time to do anything but stand there and take the consequesnces if a batch ignites.

[Mumbles]

A 1-10 atribute really has no practical application. It places restrictions on the bounds and would make normally quite sensitive things appear much safer than they are based upon the continuum of all products. The best would be actually physical data. Drop hammer tests, friction tests, auto ignition tests, etc. These give an absolute measure.

 

Actually a lot of that kind of data is given in a book by A. A. Shidlovskiy called "Principles of Pyrotechnics" Might be a bland read for may, but it has enormous amounts of useful data.

[Frozentech]

Here's my favorite video of how energetic whistle mix is, and why I only keep a little bit around at any given time.

 

http://tinyurl.com/yp9zeq

[Swede]

Here's my favorite video of how energetic whistle mix is, and why I only keep a little bit around at any given time.

 

http://tinyurl.com/yp9zeq

Wow! That video is pretty eye watering! Thanks for sharing it.

[TheSidewinder]

60lb Rocket? Seriously? I haven't seen that as of yet. Is there a video of it?

Yes, and I thought the video was linked somewhere here. I can't find it though. Not sure where to start, all my search terms turned up blank.

 

It was impressive, to say the least.....

[Richtee]

Here's my favorite video of how energetic whistle mix is, and why I only keep a little bit around at any given time.

 

http://tinyurl.com/yp9zeq

 

Any idea if that was a benz or sali fuel mix? I can't get anything like that reaction with benz, even with iron oxide.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=iR7R1VX4QSg

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=lBCT8MC8SC4&...feature=related

Both Perc/NaBenz mixes.

Edited September 15, 2008 by FREAKYDUTCHMEN

[tentacles]

That video is Dan Creagan's test from a while back. Keep in mind as well, that is granulated whistle so it's a bit faster than a powder.

[Richtee]

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=iR7R1VX4QSg

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=lBCT8MC8SC4&...feature=related

Both Perc/NaBenz mixes.

Almost enough to make me take up rocketry! Sigh.. wish I had the time and resources, but the shells is what I like best. Soo... rocket prop, OK but what was that stuff that was in the other vid? I have heard that Sali is more reactive. I'm STILL looking for a burst alternative. I did make a 100g batch of KP i'm gonna try as soon as it dries.

 

That video is Dan Creagan's test from a while back. Keep in mind as well, that is granulated whistle so it's a bit faster than a powder.

 

OK... thanks.... do you know if it was benz or sali?

[tentacles]

I don't. I think Dan uses benzoate, though. If you're looking for a whistle break, just use 76/23/1 K benz mix with 1 or 2 % red iron oxide added. Screen it thoroughly, and gently, then granulate with 2% red gum. Use the granules to boost the break, should work very well.

 

If you really insist on having the craziest whistle mix possible for breaking shells, you could check out Dan's tests: http://wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rock...istletests.html Your best bet for sheer speed is probably copper oxychloride or copper chromite.

[interphase]

Hi, I didn't want to make a new thread, but I have some 70:30 KClO4:Potassium benzoate whistle mix. I put it in a tube and it doesn't seem to whistle. But it does ignite very fast. Why is this? Is it because maybe my benzoate isn't grinded down enough? Does it make a significant difference?

[Mumbles]

Could be several things. Incomplete mixing. Wet benzoate. More than likely it is the dimensions of the tube and loading pressure. It needs to be pressed pretty hard, and should fill no more than half the tube.

[interphase]

I can't tell if I mixed it well since both powders are white. I am pretty sure the benzoate isn't wet. I didn't press it at all, I just put a rammer in, didn't ram it but just pushed it down with my hands, probably not that strong. Can you granulate whistle mix aswell?

[Mumbles]

Yep, you certainly can. It's common to add about 1% by weight of a catalyst to improve whistle characteristics such as Fe2O3, CuClO, or really any transition metal salt. It's common when making rockets to granulate it with about 3% vaseline or beeswax dissolved in a solvent like coleman's camping fuel.

 

You will probably need a legitimate press, or at least a bench vise, in order to compact it enough to whistle. Just hand pressure will make it burn very fast like you mentioned.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Small whistle rockets can pressed by hand, 1/4 to 1/2 inch.

I always mix the perc and Fe2O3 first, and when it looks homogenous (pinkish) then I add the benzoate to the mixture.

[Mumbles]

Freakyductchmen brings up a good point. The catalyst added will slightly color the composition, and give a much better sense of when the composition is properly mixed.

[FrKoNaLeaSh1010]

For whistle specifically as stated the iron oxide colors it slightly and turns the whole mix an even pink. I use a color for all white comps like kno3/sugar smoke of which I add a small percent of charcoal or zinc powder(both very cheap) if you use the smallest amount it wont really affect it much but for the kclo4/benzoate the iron oxide will if anything help because it is a catalyst.