oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) thanks, at lease no i can remove afew wires to make sure the atx cant possibly push that many amps through the anode, though i doubt a chlorate cell will pull that much with 1l of water. obviously when i said it is 30A, it is a maximum of 30A, but usually pulls around 1 amp at best. thanks for the help!ill see if my (almost ) step grandfather can spare me some of the titanium sheet metal scraps he gets at work , and cut the block into shavings (small shavings there are about the 10"x10"x1/2"), and ill use one of them, or pool chlorinator cathodes, as the cathode Edited July 14, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Go and read Swede's blog on the topic. He did all the research on cell design and electrodes to reach his conclusions. Remember that the fumes from the electrolysis will eat the cell, it's seals and it's electrode connections. It may be a better idea to make a ventilated cable trunk with all the connections in a separate chamber. Lot's of web examples from known experimenters (esp Swede and AlanY indicate that there is a limit to the current due to the heat loss from the surface area. While a warm cell works well get it too hot and all the materials start to soften and the corrosion gets faster. A 1l cell may need to stand in a big bowl of water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 oh, well it seems i have alot of research to do, i would have thought more water means less heat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 oh, well it seems i have alot of research to do, i would have thought more water means less heat! Hi OMBJ, How big is your cell and what material did you make it from? WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonny Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 oh, well it seems i have alot of research to do, i would have thought more water means less heat! 30A is way too much for a 1l cell, unless you plan on adding a lot of external cooling. I ran 20-25A into an 18l cell and it would heat to around 30C. As noted above read Swede's blog. Between that blog, this thread, and here : http://oxidizing.110mb.com/chlorate/chlorate.html I don't think there is any better info to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 oh, well it seems it was allot of worrying for nothing then! i havent yet built my cell. i plan on making a 2-3L clear plastic container/jar which is completely clear, and has a lid which i can seal.this brings on the question as to what happens to a chlorate cell using MMO electrodes, in terms of lost chlorine? will keeping it under pressure (with a slow releasing pressure release valve), or wont much chlorine be lost this way at all. every time i have ever tried to make chlorate, though using carbon rods or the lead dioxide plate of a SLA battery (which didnt show much corrosion, but no chlorate formed , and there was allot of chlorine gas) there was lots of chlorine gas, and no useable chlorate.then again it may have been due to the fact i was always using 12v. but i cant remember specifically. once i make a permanent cell i might place some heat sinks on the base with a small fan to regulate the temperature, as well as a permanent ammeter , though i don't know what to do, should i vent the gas or hold it and let it escape by its own accord though gaps and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 oh, well it seems it was allot of worrying for nothing then! i havent yet built my cell. i plan on making a 2-3L clear plastic container/jar which is completely clear, and has a lid which i can seal.this brings on the question as to what happens to a chlorate cell using MMO electrodes, in terms of lost chlorine? will keeping it under pressure (with a slow releasing pressure release valve), or wont much chlorine be lost this way at all. every time i have ever tried to make chlorate, though using carbon rods or the lead dioxide plate of a SLA battery (which didnt show much corrosion, but no chlorate formed , and there was allot of chlorine gas) there was lots of chlorine gas, and no useable chlorate.then again it may have been due to the fact i was always using 12v. but i cant remember specifically. once i make a permanent cell i might place some heat sinks on the base with a small fan to regulate the temperature, as well as a permanent ammeter , though i don't know what to do, should i vent the gas or hold it and let it escape by its own accord though gaps and such. Hi OMBJ, I run my cells with a vent to atmosphere. All that hydrogen needs a place to go . If you just let it run, the cell tends toward alkalinity with an efficiency of between 50%-60% maximum. It smells strongly of bleach, because that is the interim step to making chlorates from saltwater. If you set it up with pH control (add dilute hydrochloric pool acid) and run it near neutral (pH 7.0 or slightly lower), the efficiency goes up to about 90% or better. Read Swede's blogs. The caution is this: don't let the pH go below 6.5!!! Down at a pH of 6.0 or lower, a lot of chlorine starts coming out of the cell which can be a dangerous situation! Swede describes measuring the amperage and adding metered amounts of HCl according to the current used by the cell. He also describes a method of gently adding the acid so it disperses slowly and any chlorine generated is mostly kept in solution so it does it's work without freeing a poisonous cloud. If carefully followed, the results are, 1) a highly efficient system (more chlorate for less energy) and 2) everything running safely . Let us know if you have any questions. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 yes i understand how that would work. no chlorate or chloride would react with the acid, all hydroxide would be given converted to chloride, but all (hypo)chlorite would release its chlorine .this is good to know.im going to buy an ammeter and a ph metter now for my cell! or a lot of litmus paper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) yes i understand how that would work. no chlorate or chloride would react with the acid, all hydroxide would be given converted to chloride, but all (hypo)chlorite would release its chlorine .this is good to know.im going to buy an ammeter and a ph metter now for my cell! or a lot of litmus paper Hi OMBJ, A DC ammeter with a shunt should serve you well. The litmus would probably work but I prefer pH paper. The pH meter might just be poisoned by the mother liquor in the cell (again, read Swede's blogs). WSM Edited July 16, 2011 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonny Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 i plan on making a 2-3L clear plastic container/jar which is completely clear, and has a lid which i can seal. Unless you are only experimenting, I wouldn't bother with such a tiny cell. Make a bucket cell (18-20l) and let it go. Even without any ph control (and poor efficiency) you can still be harvesting chlorate by the kg rather than grams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 A larger cell is a good idea, especially since you have a large anode coming. If you are using sodium chloride a lot more chlorate will be in solution. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 firstly may i ask what the purpose of the shunt is? i am still trying to figure out what it is, secondly, i am still experimenting, so i will start by just getting 100g or more. and maybe after i move house ill build a larger more permanent cell, though if i come across a small glass tank or some large sealable container i might make larger amounts of chlorate.also, i found out laserred can ship up to 6 of his 10"x6" sheets under the same postage, so i decided to buy a second sheet, that way ill have more anodes i can sell, and more which i can use for my own devious purposes! Mwahahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonny Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 if i come across a small glass tank or some large sealable container i might make larger amounts of chlorate. A 18-20l bucket from the hardware store with a (sealable) lid doesn't really get any easier to come across. I ran several batches, totalling ~25kgs and the cell is still as good as new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) hmm.... that didnt cross my mind, however im on a tight budget stockpiling my investments for the site(i spend 90% of what i earn from my ebay and from my online store, and keep the rest for whatever). i only was able to buy the MMO mesh because of the fact that one of my auctions (selling some of the USB flash drives i have accumilated over the past year, sold for a somewhat large amount of money.and since chlorate is unsellable, everything im going to need for the large cell will need to come out of what i have designated as my spending money, which isnt much considering i dont even have a job. but thanks for telling me i honestly would never have thought of looking at the hardware store for that, ill have to stop by the hardware store to see exactly how much ill be spending on the cell. though if its going to be my permanent cell, its going to need to have a screwable lid, not just a peel off lid like for beer brew kits. Edited July 17, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 firstly may i ask what the purpose of the shunt is? i am still trying to figure out what it is, A DC ammeter requires a shunt (an electrical bypass with low resistance) to limit the current to the meter for an accurate measurement and pass most of the voltage. A google search might be helpful. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 A DC ammeter requires a shunt (an electrical bypass with low resistance) to limit the current to the meter for an accurate measurement and pass most of the voltage. A google search might be helpful. WSM i did make such a search, and the results were making little sense. however so did the concept of the relay, and it wasnt until i asked my dad who blatantly said its an electrically powerd switch which closes a circuit, then i got it, after almost a week of study.ill try and find a circuit diagram of where one would e placed, since i dont quite understand still ( currently i imagine that the power runs through the ammeter and the shut shorts out the cell which of course makes no sense). I JUST WANT TO SAY A BIG THANKS TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD FOR ALL THE HELP YOU'VE PROVIDED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Swede's blog here said that the thin buckets were not robust enough for permanent use, the plastic will degrade. So use the bucket a few times then bin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 thats why i want my permanent cell to be glass.and currently my demands are easily met by a 500g yeild! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I've never had problems with my polyethylene bucked degrading. It holds electrolyte since 8 months old and has run at least 3 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 i did make such a search, and the results were making little sense. however so did the concept of the relay, and it wasnt until i asked my dad who blatantly said its an electrically powerd switch which closes a circuit, then i got it, after almost a week of study.ill try and find a circuit diagram of where one would e placed, since i dont quite understand still ( currently i imagine that the power runs through the ammeter and the shut shorts out the cell which of course makes no sense). The ammeter and shunt run parallel to each other in series with the power supply. The shunt's purpose is to carry most of the current and allow only a small, measured amount of the current to pass through the meter, allowing the meter to read out the actual current while not carrying the full load of current. It's like the meter takes "a taste" of the current and tells you how "strong " it is. Meanwhile the shunt carries the bulk of the current right through to do the work. Is that better? Let me know if you still aren't clear. Thanks. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanbeefjerky Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 yes i understand now!im wondering though, will the ammeter still detect the actual current if no shunt is used? (i would imagine that it would break though) , and will it work the same with an additional shunt even if it has its own internal shunt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonny Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Swede's blog here said that the thin buckets were not robust enough for permanent use, the plastic will degrade. So use the bucket a few times then bin it. I guess permanent use is the key term. My bucket has run about 10 batches in total ( chloride->chlorate and chlorate->perchlorate) There is no noticeable wear, and I've made probably 50 lbs of chlorate and converted maybe 5-10 lbs into perc. IMO unless you plan on producing massive amounts of (per)chlorate, the bucket cell is good economical choice. As you said, it can simply be discarded and cheaply replaced. The ammeter and shunt run parallel to each other in series with the power supply. The shunt's purpose is to carry most of the current and allow only a small, measured amount of the current to pass through the meter, allowing the meter to read out the actual current while not carrying the full load of current. It's like the meter takes "a taste" of the current and tells you how "strong " it is. Meanwhile the shunt carries the bulk of the current right through to do the work.WSM I've never shunted my DC ammeters... I just used ammeters with (much) more capacity than the max Amperage I would put into my cell. It makes sense though to allow the bulk of the juice to flow past the ammeter right to the cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 yes i understand now!im wondering though, will the ammeter still detect the actual current if no shunt is used? (i would imagine that it would break though) , and will it work the same with an additional shunt even if it has its own internal shunt? I imagine an ammeter with a low range can be protected with a high conductivity, low ohm resister (basically what a shunt is) either internal or external to the meter. The use of a shunt comes into play with higher current range meters. I have meters with shunts for the 30 Amp, 100 Amp and 200 Amp ranges (either analog or digital). As far as using a DC ammeter without a shunt, you might just let the smoke out (I have ). If the ammeter has an internal shunt and you add an external shunt in parallel, the results will be off. Resistances in parallel are less than the lowest value used,i.e., your reads will be off and you might smoke the meter. Low cost DC ammeters with shunts can be had on eBay. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I believe 50AE was having issues with his glass cell. I believe we had deduced that the alkaline environment was slowly eating away the glass walls and depositing it on the electrode surface, slowly killing it. I for the life of me cannot find the post right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) I think not Mumbles. When my electrodes died, they did in plastic cells. I used glass in the beginning, for a very little time Edited July 18, 2011 by 50AE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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