Veline vs Rubber star system

[Chillardbee]

Hello good folks,

  After many years, I'm going to expand my palette to include colored stars. In Canada, the fireworks hobby is not an easy thing to get into let alone do for the accessibility of chemicals (FYI).

Anyway, I'm posting this for to glean some information from those that have had experience with either the Veline or Rubber star system (as per the skylighter information and kits) from anyone who has used either system (or both)... what is your opinion on it? which one do you prefer and why? 

  So far, I seem to be leaning more towards the Rubber star system more because there is less chemicals involved and it seems to me that it having a higher addition of Mag/Al it might make a brighter star. The barium Nitrate is vexing in the veline comp because that's pretty much impossible to get in Canada.

  Another thing and probably very important and has me stressed to a degree... Red gum... surprisingly unavailable. There seems to be only a possible two places I might get it but the sites seem sketchy and the cost rather prohibitive ($90 CAD/pound). I seem to remember reading an article that red gum was used as an alternative to the more expensive shellac (I reckon that depends where you're located). Shellac is more available here and quite a bit more cheaper. So, would this be better than red gum? There seems to be two types available, red and yellow (dewaxed) which would be the best choice? 

  Also, I'm not necessarily locked into using either/or of these systems. I've explored the PFP database and the pyrodata base for alternatives (baring compositions with hard to get materials) but brightness and burn rates are also a consideration which is why I kind of would like to keep it to one system or another.

Thank in advance for any help, insight, and knowledge you share, cheers.

 

[AustralianPyromaniac]

Can't speak much to the main question, but regarding fuel substitution, you may want to consider colophony (pine resin). It is not as good a fuel as regum, but it is much cheaper than shellac and burns better with perchlorate than redgum does. It is also widely available online. Regum is a type of tree resin from trees that only grows here in Australia, but other tree resins burn similarly. 

When people talk about subbing regum for shellac, this is often related to chlorate comps, both fuels burn well with chlorates. In perchlorate comps, shellac does not burn as well as redgum and is not recommended. It is also extremely expensive. 

I am surprised to hear barium salts are completely unavailable. Barium carbonate is available at pottery stores and can be converted to nitrate or chlorate (through electrolysis). 

AP.

[cmjlab]

In reference to rubber stars vs. Veline - it's a very subjective question, so you will get very biased answers unfortunately (as I'm about to demonstrate with my 2¢).

I've used some of the Veline colors when I first started.  They were not bright, brilliant or excellent - they were acceptable colors that you could tell what each color was supposed to be, and they DID have a somewhat balanced brilliance (in that NONE of them were brilliant).

I've made versions of the rubber stars, but unfortunately, not the carbonate versions shown in that bottom chart of the skylighter article.  The versions I made were the Brilliant Red / Strontium Nitrate based, Brilliant Green / Barium Nitrate based, and Optical yellow (mix of the red and green) - those stars were some of the brightest and brilliant colors I've made, but there are no blues or purples that will match them in brilliance. **I know - you don't want nitrate based formulas**

I did make a Copper Carbonate Blue once, it burned all the way back to the ground... (Probably something I messed up as I was pretty new still).

All this to say, I'd go with what you have access to, and if you can do both, go with whichever is easier / cheaper for you.  Good luck!

 

[Chillardbee]

8 hours ago, AustralianPyromaniac said:

Can't speak much to the main question, but regarding fuel substitution, you may want to consider colophony (pine resin). It is not as good a fuel as regum, but it is much cheaper than shellac and burns better with perchlorate than redgum does. It is also widely available online. Regum is a type of tree resin from trees that only grows here in Australia, but other tree resins burn similarly. 

When people talk about subbing regum for shellac, this is often related to chlorate comps, both fuels burn well with chlorates. In perchlorate comps, shellac does not burn as well as redgum and is not recommended. It is also extremely expensive. 

I am surprised to hear barium salts are completely unavailable. Barium carbonate is available at pottery stores and can be converted to nitrate or chlorate (through electrolysis). 

AP.

In concern with carbonates, yes, they are available here and is what I'll have to rely on. It's the nitrates of barium and strontium that are not accessible. Nitric acid to make nitrates is even less so and the chloride salts are, well, i think there might be source, i'll have to check... but then that means a lot of fussing too, lol. I think i should probably stick with comps that call for the carbonates.

thank you for the pine resin tip, I'll check that out. I take it that that's same thing as rosin eh?

[Zumber]

If you are going to use carbonates then you must need perchlorate to burn it.

Nitrates are oxidizers while carbonates not.

[Chillardbee]

6 hours ago, Zumber said:

If you are going to use carbonates then you must need perchlorate to burn it.

Nitrates are oxidizers while carbonates not.

Yes, believe it or not, kclo4 was easy enough to make. I had the opportunity to get a 25kg (55 pounds) of potassium chloride and ran 8 cells 3 gallons each for a week each and ended up 45 pounds (took over 3 months to finish it all) with using Sodium Metabisulphite for Chlorate destruction.

[Mumbles]

It's not an official "system", but take a look at Buell Red.  Just a note of advisement, this formula only adds to 99, so you'll see it represented a lot as 35.35% KClO4 for instance, but I find that to be kind of annoying.  If you really need something that adds to 100, make it 6 parts dextrin.  This formula or set of formulas is a personal favorite of mine.

KClO4 - 35

Strontium Carbonate - 25

MgAl (-200 mesh) - 14

Parlon - 13

Red Gum - 7

Dextrin - 5

 

You can make equally good greens with barium carbonate.  Yellows and oranges work well well with calcium carbonate and sodium oxalate.  I tend to make optical yellows from blends of red and green though.  I can't get past an internal dislike for the specific shades of yellow and orange than sodium and calcium make.  Believe it or not, I've been told that copper carbonate still makes a decent blue.  I can't speak much to other colors like purple, but it should be possible.  

Carbonates can 100% operate as oxidizers under the right conditions for what it's worth.  The above formula is clear proof of that.

[CHNO]

My new theoretical System:

Color.pdf Color2.pdf

[redbullzuiper]

On 2/12/2024 at 6:14 PM, Mumbles said:

It's not an official "system", but take a look at Buell Red.  Just a note of advisement, this formula only adds to 99, so you'll see it represented a lot as 35.35% KClO4 for instance, but I find that to be kind of annoying.  If you really need something that adds to 100, make it 6 parts dextrin.  This formula or set of formulas is a personal favorite of mine.

KClO4 - 35

Strontium Carbonate - 25

MgAl (-200 mesh) - 14

Parlon - 13

Red Gum - 7

Dextrin - 5

 

You can make equally good greens with barium carbonate.  Yellows and oranges work well well with calcium carbonate and sodium oxalate.  I tend to make optical yellows from blends of red and green though.  I can't get past an internal dislike for the specific shades of yellow and orange than sodium and calcium make.  Believe it or not, I've been told that copper carbonate still makes a decent blue.  I can't speak much to other colors like purple, but it should be possible.  

Carbonates can 100% operate as oxidizers under the right conditions for what it's worth.  The above formula is clear proof of that.

You have a video of this formula? 

I never really liked carbonate reds and greens as they were in the compositions I used somewhat washed out. Especially in the veline system, I dont like the green and red at all from velines compositions. Except the blue, the blue is bright and acceptable in color.

The rubber stars on the other hand are really bright and have intense green and red color.

I wonder how your formula looks like, with carbonate as the coloring agent.

[Darude90]

Carbonate blue, although it looked more purplish 

[redbullzuiper]

Whats the formula of that composition? 

[Darude90]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:18 PM, redbullzuiper said:

Whats the formula of that composition? 

Potassium Perchlorate 61%

Parlon 13%

Copper(II) Carbonate12%

Red Gum 9%

Dextrin 5%

Edited February 20 by Darude90

[Mumbles]

On 2/16/2024 at 10:41 AM, redbullzuiper said:

You have a video of this formula? 

I never really liked carbonate reds and greens as they were in the compositions I used somewhat washed out. Especially in the veline system, I dont like the green and red at all from velines compositions. Except the blue, the blue is bright and acceptable in color.

The rubber stars on the other hand are really bright and have intense green and red color.

I wonder how your formula looks like, with carbonate as the coloring agent.

I went looking, and none of my videos with them in it are very good.  The camera gets oversaturated and you can't see the color particularly well.  Happy to share if you'd still like to take a look.

[redbullzuiper]

21 hours ago, Mumbles said:

I went looking, and none of my videos with them in it are very good.  The camera gets oversaturated and you can't see the color particularly well.  Happy to share if you'd still like to take a look.

I would love too, I am curious how carbonate reds compare to nitrate reds.

Even if the quality is poor, I dont mind atleast I have something to look at ^^

[johnnypyro]

I've spent this winter trying out a few colours "systems" and I think the Buell carbonates win out. Not only are the colours good, but they ignite very easily with a thin layer of monocapa and store well in the humid condition of the UK. Here is green, orange (55% red and 45% green), and green.

.

[johnnypyro]

This was an attempt to compare three green compositions: Emerald green (left), Shimizu green #1 (centre), Buell green (right). All primed with monocapa. The Shimizu green took longer to ignite, so the next picture is a few frames later in the video. 

 I couldn't honestly say that there is a clear difference by eye. But I've done this firework a couple of times and Shimizu is paler, and the Buell a richer green with Emerald green somewhere in the middle.

 

Edited February 22 by johnnypyro

[Zumber]

9 hours ago, redbullzuiper said:

I would love too, I am curious how carbonate reds compare to nitrate reds.

Even if the quality is poor, I dont mind atleast I have something to look at ^^

Carbonates red are water resistant ( dries readily and absorbs less moisture) If made with potassium perchlorate.

Its hard to ignite thats the reason why it is prepared using metallic plus organic fuel ( usually magnelium and red gum)

Nitrate red produces deep red colour but it absorbs moisture take time to dry out and absorbs moisture when humidity is high.

 

[cmjlab]

Those first three carbonate based colors were pretty good looking.  Sounds like you've got a system worked out and can start building shells!  What size do you plan to start with?  I'm a fan of 3" for single color cylinder shells, but prefer 4" or 5" for multi breaks as they seem to be a good trade off for not burning through b.p. and chems, while still having enough room to fit my hand inside.

[redbullzuiper]

Although it's hard to judge the color via pictures, to me they all look pale. I have a video with veline's green here:

It does look pale compared to nitrate color. 

I havent tried Buell red or green, so maybe worth for me to try.

Another thing I notice from carbonates, they do tend to leave a undesired tail. Is that because the metallics dont fully burn? Both the pictures of @johnnypyro as the video of my veline shows this fenomena. Interesting ...

I have only this nitrate green at hand, not sure which formula I used, but the color has a much more pleasant green, and it burns cleaner

[Zumber]

If you want you can get deep red and green even using nitrates alone.

[Zumber]

Please refer to this thread for red ad green nitrate star.

https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/14443-fireworks-colour-fountain/#comment-196806

[Mumbles]

Here's a couple of shells with Buell color stars in them.  I could have sworn I had one with the green in it too, but can't seem to find it.

One added advantage I like with these formulas is they all burn about the same rate.  With nitrate based stars, making the green and red analogues of each other often gave drastically different burn rates.  This is likely in part due to moisture.

If you're seeing a tail behind your stars, you might want to try passing the final blended comp through a finer screen.  Chunks and clumps in things like red gum and parlon can appear as an iridescent tail, which I personally find really distracting.  Binding with acetone also regularly causes this issue as well.

 

[CHNO]

Color3.pdf

[CHNO]

Simply calculate everything in moles:

[Soloserly]

On 2/13/2024 at 2:19 AM, CHNO said:

My new theoretical System:

Color.pdf 117.57 kB · 12 downloads Color2.pdf 14.37 kB · 11 downloads

Does the bottom chart on the "Color.pdf" file correspond to the NX color system kits that Fireworks Cookbook has?  I noticed that it's the same unique colors (Lemon Yellow, Chartreuse, etc.)