Black Powder burning speed x charcoal

[jimjones]

would a hair blower work for the drying box? I won`t put BP in the oven again, that was only a test.

 

and yes, I`m doing almost all tests indoors because I live in an apartment. I need to find a good solution to mill the BP elsewhere, because it is a big risk doing it indoors.

[justvisiting]

I'm not going to get down in the weeds over various statements and accusations about my work. I'll just show my work. Sure, it is possible that I pretended to do the work, or lied about the results. In general, my claims have been accepted as genuine. I'm not about to start defending my character now.

 

http://pyrobin.com/files/A%20Basic%20Comparison%20of%20Milling%20Media%20and%20Preparation%20Methods%20for%20Black%20Powder.doc

 

The article I linked to above specifically addresses the issue of lead contamination when milling batches of charcoal and black powder in Rebel 17 (5 litre) rubber-lined milling 'jars'. It's worth noting that the lead spheres I used were the hardest spheres money could buy, cast by 'Leadballs' before he died. EVEN THOUGH I used very hard lead, when milling charcoal only, the wear on the media was significant and measurable in whole gram amounts. It seems reasonable to me that soft lead would wear much much faster. In earlier work, I reported a weight increase of 60 GRAMS in a 1kilogram batch of black powder, milled for 4 hours with soft lead spheres, 1/2" diameter.

 

If there are articles about milling that report results that refute my findings, I'd be eager to read them. I've shown my cards. If there are nothing but anecdotal accounts to indicate that I'm wrong, I'm going to have to just trust what my eyes have seen to be true.

[justvisiting]

jimjones, you gonna end up like your namesake if you don't take your hobby to a safer location!

[SharkWhisperer]

would a hair blower work for the drying box? I won`t put BP in the oven again, that was only a test.

 

and yes, I`m doing almost all tests indoors because I live in an apartment. I need to find a good solution to mill the BP elsewhere, because it is a big risk doing it indoors.

It could have been a painful test--that's the issue. An electric hair dryer/blower would probably be 100x safer, though not completely without risk.

 

You're getting great results now.

 

A bigger worry to me is that you're doing everything, milling and burn testing included, in your apartment. That's dangerous. Very risky. Not only to you but to everybody in the building.

 

That said, the oven drying scares me more than the apartment milling, although both are huge "no-no's" in responsible pyro. I'd try hard to figure out a different place. I know you're urban, but you seem to be a bright dude, so make some friends in the countryside and find a way to do the dangerous stuff there (storage included). There are other pyros nearby; you need to locate them. It shouldn't be difficult.

 

Our congratulations on your BP successes are tempered by the potential disastrous implications of using your selected indoor laboratory...

 

You eventually will have an accident, only minor hopefully. A major disaster is easily possible with your current lab. You're a bright dude. Think, man!!!

jimjones, you gonna end up like your namesake if you don't take your hobby to a safer location!

No shit. Listen to reason. You're doing well in terms of results, but you're about to burn down the neighborhood, yourself included, ffs.

[SharkWhisperer]

I'm not going to get down in the weeds over various statements and accusations about my work. I'll just show my work. Sure, it is possible that I pretended to do the work, or lied about the results. In general, my claims have been accepted as genuine. I'm not about to start defending my character now.

 

http://pyrobin.com/files/A%20Basic%20Comparison%20of%20Milling%20Media%20and%20Preparation%20Methods%20for%20Black%20Powder.doc

 

The article I linked to above specifically addresses the issue of lead contamination when milling batches of charcoal and black powder in Rebel 17 (5 litre) rubber-lined milling 'jars'. It's worth noting that the lead spheres I used were the hardest spheres money could buy, cast by 'Leadballs' before he died. EVEN THOUGH I used very hard lead, when milling charcoal only, the wear on the media was significant and measurable in whole gram amounts. It seems reasonable to me that soft lead would wear much much faster. In earlier work, I reported a weight increase of 60 GRAMS in a 1kilogram batch of black powder, milled for 4 hours with soft lead spheres, 1/2" diameter.

 

If there are articles about milling that report results that refute my findings, I'd be eager to read them. I've shown my cards. If there are nothing but anecdotal accounts to indicate that I'm wrong, I'm going to have to just trust what my eyes have seen to be true.

Cool beans. Your numbers are your numbers. They would have been strengthened by measuring your media weight, too, but this is after the fact. Anyways, good work and point taken. And that was with hardened lead balls? Holy crap, are you milling diamond charcoal????? That stuff's rugged!

 

As always, data beats anecdote.

 

Point taken.

 

Respect.

[Boophoenix]

JJ, I hope you listen to SW warnings they are for your own and others safety. He didn’t mention in the most recent post that the faster drying likely helped as much as the drying more. I have trouble with the latter as I don’t currently have a drying box and rely on attempting to dry outdoors in the little bit of sun I can manage to chase around my yard.

 

Oh JJ, I’m unaware of any tennis ball test as it would be a flaming mess I’d think and to soft to get a good test from I’d suspect. There is a baseball test that is fairly representative of lifting a shell that is an acceptable means of testing. It will answer yes or no questions, but for good quality comparisons of BP performance I suspect it’s not very well suited. I’ve been exploring reverting back to the golf ball tests trying to find if they may preform any better. They seem to, but the jury is still out. The last investigating I did on that I think European golf balls are a smidge large than US ones making me want to try acquire a few to try out. I do have some stainless steel sphere large enough to test with, but they’d be to limited to just my own testing so I’ve neglected to explore them as I like the idea of others being able to compare results should they choose to test as well.

SW, being friends with JV I can tell ya he’s pretty darn meticulous in his quests for answers to questions. You mentioned compromised BP results. I don’t believe JV ever states any noticeable compromises just that the wear of soft lead is present. I think I had a debate with him once on the very topic thinking there may would be a negative impact on results in my opinion. I think he proved me incorrect in that opinion finding the lead acted as a catalyst ( maybe the correct word ) not effect the performance in any noticeable way. By anyone who mills with lead has experienced their potassium nitrate alone it discolors. This is absolutely signs of wear in my simple opinion. I had some I left in a mill jar once milled with lead. It re-clumped a little, but I noticed an interesting side effect the lead seemed to act a little like an anti cake. It didn’t clump like my non milled materials.

Being partially responsible I feel to reintroducing some of the use of stainless media a while back importing a fairly quantity I will agree with you that it is just a spark resistant material. I’ve not heard or read of any issues I can recall from it and our art though. I have with glass and ceramic medias though. We all assume some risk in this art and milling with stainless is one I’m will to accept myself. We all must decide where we are comfortable with the unknowns.

[Mumbles]

If you're interested in meteor shells, they're described in one of the best of AFN books. The outer coating acts in a way as part of the timing element. The real fuse or passfire is usually under the coating.

 

I've always wanted to make some.

[SeaMonkey]

jimjones,

 

It appears that the lack of dryness of your powder was the

primary reason for the slow burns before and that the purity

of your Saltpeter is not a problem at all. Good work in solving

the problem.

 

Some home brew Powder Monkeys do dry their small batches

with an oven similar to the one you used - but it must be modified

so that the heating element above the powder only gets warm to

the touch and not burning hot. When so modified the element

becomes a low level infrared source that will dry the powder

safely by indirect warmth without causing it to get hot.

 

Your reasoning is good but you must be very careful. Please

take care so that we can enjoy your progress for many years

to come. I agree with the sound advice and cautions which the

others have expressed. And, yes, Congratulations! on what

you've accomplished!

[SharkWhisperer]

If you're interested in meteor shells, they're described in one of the best of AFN books. The outer coating acts in a way as part of the timing element. The real fuse or passfire is usually under the coating.

 

I've always wanted to make some.

The upward flight is gorgeous with meteor sphere's tail (recent post shows some experiments on yesterday's threads: BooPhoenix, earlier in this thread:

); the burst is what you make it be. His wasn't bad, from my view. Actually, I'm jealous and might have to make a few myself for the first time this weekend!!! Our amigo was using a thick C6 coating, and had unpredictable issues--a mine effect under the shell that might have been due to pieces of the shell's shell fragmenting and burning on the way out. I might have said I meant for it to do that, hah ha. But it still flew ok and burst pretty nicely, and uniformly. Not perfect, but what ever is? I suggested testing a coating of BP slurry in NC atop the final outer layer. To strengthen it during transport/launch and to provide a bit of water resistance. Do you think an NC outer layer would slow burning inordinately on the way up? Or mess up the upwards effect (and passfire to shell inside components)? Guess there's only one way to know for certain! Edited February 13, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[Boophoenix]

Thanks, Mumbles I’ll have to look for that info. I got my original interest from David Blesser’s Round Stars And Shells.

SW, thank ya. Glad ya liked it.

If you venture into this adventure I would recommend doing the first one as a solo. There seems to be a learning curve to be explored. I’d hate to tell all of my findings so far and form a bias towards discovery should anyone pay any attention to it. I don’t mean that to seem non sharing. As such a newbie I’d like to see if some of the ways I approached the build were of value or not. Some aspects of the first build hit me as late as two years later pondering over it. Blesser warns of the comp flaking off and it’s a valid warning as most of us who venture into these find out. Typing this just brought another question to mind from the second build that I will share. I am just wondering since I had more experience the second round if I may have built faster at the sacrifice of letting the dextrin activate as well as it could have, hmm.

I have no problem sharing my failures along with any successes. I’ve never claimed any skill level above a newbie. I wasn’t disappointed with either, but not impressed by either. I try to be open minded and critical of my own tests to try to learn from them. I should probably add that the first was a 3 to 4 and the second was a 4 to 5 as I was losing time looking for the 3” casings at start of the project so I made the switch to proceed.

I don’t think the NC slurry would be of much use as a finish coating with BP based meteor formulas other than maybe cutting down on a little dust of handling. If the meteor can’t take handling it’ll never survive lifting. That’s just my opinion though. I don’t think the C6 was overly susceptible to moisture the notation of it drawing moisture back is just a property of charcoal and potassium nitrate after being extensively dried in my simple opinion.

Be wary of the issues sometimes found with NC slurries not passing fire with inserts and such. I’m not sure what velocities inserts might leave a break at but in some of my baseball and golf ball tests lifts were in the 400 feet per second range leaving the mortar. If you don’t dig up some literature on the build Blesser recommends a NC slurry over the spoollette. I assume to keep from driving moisture into the shell during build as that seems the most logical reason.

You may need to do some calculating if the formulas vary as I just followed some leads since the knowledge was before my knowledge at the time to explore. The meteor is your time fuse for the shell essentially so if it burns to slow it breaks to late or if to fast it’ll break early. I probably got lucky on the first one. The second could be burn rate timing off or the fracture either one. It may have even been lifted a little hotter. As I can swear I see a piece of the meteor at break exiting upwards and to the right a little.

[SharkWhisperer]

***Note: I think we're getting a little off-topic here from JJ's powder burn speed thread. BP, maybe start a new thread about your experiments?

 

 

Yo BP!

 

There's a learning curve with everything, some shallow, some steep. This is pyro so you need to know your place along that curve. Apart from that, its simples! There's a lot of bright folks with advanced experience who are more than willing to dissect your flights and make suggestions. But you can't be shy and wait "until you have it figured out" or similar...that can be counterproductive. That does seem kinda "non-sharing" and we'd all like to follow your progress. Nobody's going to swipe your ideas...they are all documented as yours. You'll get better feedback if you are open with the crew, and advance your project(s) possibly much faster than on your own. But nobody will grab credit for your successes, so no worries. Please continue experimenting and sharing, and know that we're all behind you!

 

The NC was just an off-the-cuff notion. If I had two identical shells, I'd test it. I appreciate that it is not the focus of your optimization schedule so I let it rest at that.

 

You're doing well. Keep that sky lit up, my friend!!!

 

SW

 

p.s. I could possibly imagine early on in the break, but cannot verify, that you have a piece breaking off at burst to the right in video #2. Things look pretty good (including that "intended" mine effect)!

Edited February 13, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[Boophoenix]

Lol, I felt we were drifting a bit to far as well and almost suggested a new thread myself. Should you take up the exploration feel free to fire one up or anyone else for that matter. We had a thread on FW with only two of us actively participating in builds as far as I am aware of. The other fellows build fired me up to sweep the dust of my already planned first attempt that had stalled prior to finishing the core shell. I’m not sure when attempt three will take place on my end yet. Maybe in the fall if work and weather allow.

[jimjones]

SW, very nice shell. Why the lifting explosion is louder than the explosion from the shell? It is always the opposite when watching the commercial fireworks we have here (example found on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7JrrHvmAb0 ).

 

 

And answering my own question: there is no tennis ball challenge. The competition that exists is called pyro golf. I read it on the Ian Von Maltitz manual. He says that today the competition BP`s are tested using 2g of BP in these pyro golf competitions. But he doesn`t list all the rules. (the kind of mortar, the angle of the mortar, the existence or not of a lifting cup, etc). I still couldn`t find all the rules. Does anyone know the rules?

 

I read an old thread in which someone was suggesting to do a competition between members of this forum, but I don`t think this happened..

Edited February 13, 2020 by jimjones

[justvisiting]

jimjones, is baseball testing not interesting to you? That's a commonly used and well-documented testing method for lift. It's not the most accurate, but is close enough for our purposes. I read both of Ian Von Maltitz's books. I found them lacking in practical detail. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd describe his 'how to' factor to be a 3. When I contacted him about supermilling charcoal to make screen-mixed black powder that rivals commercial powder, he basically told me it was common knowledge. Interestingly, the 'common knowledge' didn't make it into his books

[Boophoenix]

JJ, I think what you noticed is two various issues. One a greater distance of the recording from lift to break. As I think you are referring to my meteor shell video he embedded ( haven’t figured out how to do that yet myself ) in his post. The second many manufactured shells have a modified break charge. I’m not a fan of them. If I could build silent firework shells I absolutely would.

 

There could be a third variable as I have mentioned I’m horrible with not taking notes so this one is just a very good possibility. The shell may have been broken with some BP I made in which case it likely suffered performance issues as I always fight trying to get my BP dried fast enough. The lift was likely not mine as we did the finishing prep to fire it earlier that day while working on some 12” shells at a friends table. Where I got talked into building a 12” shell for a curious idea I had.

 

Talk about monster builders this husband and wife built all but my one of these in two days shown below. They helped with my one though.

 

 

PS, golf ball testing has seemed to fade in recent years in turn baseball ( 2.875 inch ) became more popular as it more accurately represents lifting a shell. Not many people lift 1.68 inch shells.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Boophoenix

[jimjones]

These are some monster shells!

 

And do you have the parameters used in these baseball tests? grams of BP, angle of the mortar, type of mortar, etc?

[Boophoenix]

Most people test 10 grams of powder I do believe with the baseball using a 3” mortar. I personally use a Mighty-Might HDPE mortar 3” x 18” as that is what I have. The baseball is shot as straight up as possible in hopes of recovering it for another round.

Here’s a pretty descriptive article discussing testing with baseballs

 

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/A%20Basic%20Comparison%20of%20Milling%20Media%20and%20Preparation%20Methods%20for%20Black%20Powder.doc

 

 

I’ve never thought to ask if anyone has ever noticed a difference with a taller mortar. As some of the commercial mortars I use occasionally vary in height.

 

On average mortars are 6 times the height as diameter.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Boophoenix

[jimjones]

Most people test 10 grams of powder I do believe with the baseball using a 3” mortar. I personally use a Mighty-Might HDPE mortar 3” x 18” as that is what I have. The baseball is shot as straight up as possible in hopes of recovering it for another round.

 

Here’s a pretty descriptive article discussing testing with baseballs

 

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/A%20Basic%20Comparison%20of%20Milling%20Media%20and%20Preparation%20Methods%20for%20Black%20Powder.doc

 

 

I’ve never thought to ask if anyone has ever noticed a difference with a taller mortar. As some of the commercial mortars I use occasionally vary in height.

 

On average mortars are 6 times the height as diameter.

Very interesting article comparing different BP production methods.

 

I found black willow near where I live. Is it as good as weeping willow for BP charcoal?

Also I noticed that we have a lot of trees of the species Schinus molle, they are native trees. This species is so similar to weeping willow. It will be difficult for me to find a weeping willow as these two species are so similar.

[dynomike1]

Someone somewhere uses cardboard for charcoal.

Glass marbles no no no no no

[SharkWhisperer]

Very interesting article comparing different BP production methods.

 

I found black willow near where I live. Is it as good as weeping willow for BP charcoal?

Also I noticed that we have a lot of trees of the species Schinus molle, they are native trees. This species is so similar to weeping willow. It will be difficult for me to find a weeping willow as these two species are so similar.

Some report black willow as being one of the fastest of the many willow species, so I would definitely try it out. I'm using weeping willow, and my 75% nitrate BP burns like lightning! But your eucalyptus concoction is doing pretty well as it. I'd collect that willow for sure & teach yourself how to make charcoal--a very useful skill, and the next bag of eucalyptus charcoal might not be as good as the one you're using right now. Using willow might also speed up the BP production process (less milling time). Only one way to find out.

 

Probably the most important thing to consider is, once you have your powder burning the way you want, to be consistent with production and starting materials so the resulting BP performs with consistency. It's a lot of unnecessary extra work to have to dial in a new batch of BP for rockets or re-estimating/adjusting BP needed for lift, if your batches signficantly vary from one another in performance. If you are milling smaller quantities, all reasonably good but not necessarily identical BPs, then it might be a good idea to mix them all together into one large batch that will last awhile, and whose performance you know very well.

 

If you plan to experiment with rockets, then consider whipping up some BP at 60-65% nitrate (KNO₃) content; your current 75% will just blow tubes and nozzles in both coreburners and endburners and is pretty much only good for making nozzleless rockets...

Edited February 14, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[Mumbles]

It looks like the info is in BAFN III. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the article was written by Dave Blesser.

 

I'll see if I can dig up the info, but there were some people playing with dipped coatings instead of the more traditional rolled coating. The biggest issue ifbi recall is they tend to come out a little more egg shaped. This probably gives more variability in timing than most would prefer

Personally, I think a Toro like coating might work really well here. It could give the best of both worlds in terms of speed and evenness of coating.

[Boophoenix]

I didn’t document either of my efforts very well. They were more of tinkering for myself spur of the moment. I discussed and mentioned some aspects on FW in a dedicated thread another member there started of some of the experiences along the way. We discussed them back and forth a little. I don’t believe he ever finished his before he left FW. With the minimal interest after the first I didn’t see much point in much discussion about the next round. As a beginner the only aspect I brought to the table was the attempt.

Maybe the next time I do one I’ll have more time to put into it and documenting as I’ve had a request from a friend to do so that I look to for some advice from time to time.

 

Toro may work well. I can’t really say to that yet. I’ve only attempted it once on small stars with little success so far. I do want to improve on that though. A different binder over dextrin might would help if toro doesn’t show signs of working well around the midway point.

I met David at a couple of events since my first attempt. It was cool to me to show him a picture of something he inspired. Last year when I saw him I inquired if he had ever considered a new book or revision. Should that ever happen and I become aware I’d certainly try to share any thoughts I have had on the process.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Boophoenix

[SharkWhisperer]

So...Jim Jones...what have you been tinkering with this past weekend, now that you have your BP almost dialed in???

 

Are you experimenting with charcoal manufacture??? Important to know, and testing new species can't be bad. Sheesh, you could be the master of the fastest (well, maybe besides balsa, which is a pain in the ass to work with) charcoal on your continent....Like the paulownia that arrived here in the US from China and makes one of the fastest BPs ever (and is now invasive if you know where to find it; else still expensive), I'm sure there are some Sud American/Brasilian trees (besides imported eucalyptus) that would make fantastically lightning-speed BP!! Locate it and you can corner the Brasilian pyro charcoal market!!! And many of us gringos would love to test it out, too, I'm sure!!!

 

For sure try out the black willow you've located. And the other weeping willow-like tree. Compare side-by-side. And learn to make your own charcoal--it is a basic pyro skill that is not difficult to master, and is perpetually useful.

 

So...what's next?

 

Very interesting article comparing different BP production methods.

 

I found black willow near where I live. Is it as good as weeping willow for BP charcoal?

Also I noticed that we have a lot of trees of the species Schinus molle, they are native trees. This species is so similar to weeping willow. It will be difficult for me to find a weeping willow as these two species are so similar.

Edited February 17, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[SeaMonkey]

In California it seems that the two most abundant types of

trees are Eucalyptus and Pepper Tree. I've used limbs from

the Pepper Tree for years and it makes a very respectable

Charcoal for Black Powder.

 

It is nice to know that Eucalyptus is also good for the job.

 

For years I made my charcoal by open air burning and

quenching to extinguish. On a small scale, maybe two

or three pounds at a time. I resorted to this method because

it is quick and easy and doesn't require much in the way

of prep or equipment. No complaints about the quality of

the Charcoal. Jack Daniels said it worked for them so I gave

it a try and liked it.

 

I've experimented with adding about 1 to 3% Aluminum Powder

to my Black Powder to see if it speeds things up.

Edited February 17, 2020 by SeaMonkey

[jimjones]

So...Jim Jones...what have you been tinkering with this past weekend, now that you have your BP almost dialed in???

 

Are you experimenting with charcoal manufacture??? Important to know, and testing new species can't be bad. Sheesh, you could be the master of the fastest (well, maybe besides balsa, which is a pain in the ass to work with) charcoal on your continent....Like the paulownia that arrived here in the US from China and makes one of the fastest BPs ever (and is now invasive if you know where to find it; else still expensive), I'm sure there are some Sud American/Brasilian trees (besides imported eucalyptus) that would make fantastically lightning-speed BP!! Locate it and you can corner the Brasilian pyro charcoal market!!! And many of us gringos would love to test it out, too, I'm sure!!!

 

For sure try out the black willow you've located. And the other weeping willow-like tree. Compare side-by-side. And learn to make your own charcoal--it is a basic pyro skill that is not difficult to master, and is perpetually useful.

 

So...what's next?

 

I did another test with the same eucalyptus charcoal, but now using another potassium nitrate brand. This one is called Dripsol NKS: they say it is 12-00-45 and has 1% of sulphur. So I adjusted the proportions to be around 76g of this KNO3, 9,3g of sulphur and 15g of charcoal. I milled it for 7 hours using marbles and steel balls mixed.

Then I did the same 30cm burn test. this time it was even faster than my previous BP`s. I calculated 101cm/s, but with this speed and with my camera it is hard to measure things with precision. I think this new potassium nitrate is better than the other one for BP. And the conclusion (again) is that this usual eucalyptus charcoal is good for BP.

 

Next step is to find a safe place, far from people, and do the pyro baseball test. But I don`t know when I will have time to do that. Anyway, I already have the 3" mortar.

 

 

In California it seems that the two most abundant types of

trees are Eucalyptus and Pepper Tree. I've used limbs from

the Pepper Tree for years and it makes a very respectable

Charcoal for Black Powder.

 

It is nice to know that Eucalyptus is also good for the job.

 

For years I made my charcoal by open air burning and

quenching to extinguish. On a small scale, maybe two

or three pounds at a time. I resorted to this method because

it is quick and easy and doesn't require much in the way

of prep or equipment. No complaints about the quality of

the Charcoal. Jack Daniels said it worked for them so I gave

it a try and liked it.

 

I've experimented with adding about 1 to 3% Aluminum Powder

to my Black Powder to see if it speeds things up.

There are hundreds of eucalyptus species. I don`t know exactly wich one I`m using.

Did aluminum powder sped up your BP?