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King's glitter, As i call it

Actually Win. # 20 but with i

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#21 spitfire

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 05:12 PM

Is there any version of this comp that can use spherical Ti to get long trailing golden sparks?

Thanks All, Jordan

I'm afraid that won't be like a glitter effect. MgAl has an active role in this. But when you have spherical Ti... (where did you get it haha) just mix your Ti for 8 - 12% with any gold (tiger tail, weeping willow) star formula and you're pretty much on track. Depends completely on the size and form of your Ti. 


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#22 LambentPyro

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 06:33 PM

I am quite curious as to what a little added Ti would do to this formula actually.

By the way, if you want to make rock hard stars so they don't blow blind when you break a shell hard like I do with streamers, it's best to use the solvent with the binder. So I suggest using water (maybe with a little Alcohol to break ST) to fully activate the Dextrin, otherwise the Dextrin is hardly being used for what it's purpose is in the formula for.
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#23 nater

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 08:21 PM

Do you mean leaving the dextrin out of the mixed comp and using it in a solution with water when you dampen the comp? This is a tried and true method, which works quite well.

Otherwise, it is assumed that you use some solvent with any binder mixed in the comp. Add the solvent, screen it a few times and wait several 20 minutes or so for the binder to be activated. Lloyd recommends sealing the dampened tub of up and letting it rest all night.

I would think a little Ti in that comp would add some silver sparks to the mix. It would probably look nice.
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#24 Mumbles

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 11:45 PM

I would avoid leaving this particular composition sealed up overnight.  A normal formula would be fine.  This one containing nitrate, magnalium, and sodium bicarbonate could begin to react.  Having it sealed with escalate this reaction.  MJW actually just experienced this inadvertently.  20-30 min should be fine, overnight probably would be too long.

 

Fair warning on the Ti.  Too many coarse particles in glitter mixes can lead to excessive fallout.


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#25 nater

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:40 AM

Good point, I was not sure if MgAl was susceptible to the same reaction as fine aluminum with nitrates.
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#26 Mumbles

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:47 AM

It is.  Unfortunately, magnalium is also incompatible with boric acid.


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#27 LambentPyro

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:49 AM

Nater, yea the Dextrin Liquor I heard is a very efficient way of activating the Dextrin. I gotta try it sometime.

But for those that wouldn't use it, I would just replace the Denatured with very diluted Isopropanol (less than 20%) to get the most out of Dextrin without using the Liquor method.

Edit: How do you protect MgAl without using Dichromate?

Edited by LambentPyro, 30 May 2014 - 10:50 AM.

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#28 Mumbles

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:53 AM

How does using Isopropanol over ethanol, or any alcohol at all, get the most out of the dextrin?


Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

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#29 LambentPyro

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 02:44 PM

I said in my previous posts that it's good to add to break the surface tension. By all means though, if one wants to use plain distilled water, they'd get even better binding results.

Edit: yea I see what you're saying (post 27), I did word that different than my intentions. My apologies...

Edited by LambentPyro, 30 May 2014 - 02:46 PM.

http://www.YouTube.c...entPyrotechnics
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#30 nater

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 05:34 PM

I use plain water if the dextrin is in the comp and only use alcohol when binding with red gum or phenolic resin. I have found that charcoal heavy comps are more difficult to wet with water, but screening the damp comp fixes that. I also spritz the water in with a spray bottle. I was dumping premeasured amounts in, but found that wetting comp is a lot like making pie dough. The weather affects the mixture and it is very easy to turn a star comp into soup. Mixing the water in little by little and going be feel rather than a set amount works better for me.

Edit to add:

With all the said, I have been sold on using a dextrin solution (Eugene Y. "Dextrin Liquor") for my binding and granulation needs on BP comps. I cannot vouch for an improvement in speed, but I do feel it dries harder and faster than mixing the dextrin in with the comp. As Lambent mentioned above, I think the dextrin gets fully activated this way.

Edited by nater, 30 May 2014 - 05:37 PM.

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#31 LambentPyro

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:56 PM

It's funny you mention about just dumping a premeasured amount in. I found if you do little by little, it distributes among the powder evenly and it's not just easier to work with but I found it to be less messy as you work it in. Dumping it on one side makes that side soup meanwhile the other side is still meal! Especislly with dark comps, it's super easy to determine the amount of moisture just by observing the contrast. Other comps like colored formulas get flakey/crystal looking when they're wet in my experience and seem gritty when they're dried, esp. comps with atmoized metal.
http://www.YouTube.c...entPyrotechnics
This is my channel dedicated to the wonderful world of Pyrotechnics, displaying each firework as just as fascinating as the other.

"Men's arguing respectfully and adamantly has probably resulted in more actual learning than all forms of formal education combined" (Lloyd Sponenburgh).

"It looks like it's held together with duct tape, chewing gum, and good hopes" (Mumbles).

#32 GalFisk

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 08:50 AM

I like your alternate name for W20. This was the first ever glitter I made, and it's lovely. 

I've made it without milling the ingredients at all. NaHCO3 and KNO3 like fine salt, everything else as dust. Vine charcoal. I've had to add about 20% (w/w) of water to get it into a cuttable state, but maybe I'm just impatient. In any case, the result is still wonderful: 

 

The stuff does react, and smells acidic/foul (SO2? Not ammonia-like). I form it into a 10mm patty, and there is no discernable heat from that. The reaction doesn't appear to damage the effect or the stars.


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#33 MWJ

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 04:50 PM

Very nice galFisk! I like the Win 20 too. I started using Win 20 because of this post. Thanks Spitfire. :)


Edited by MWJ, 23 December 2014 - 04:51 PM.


#34 Titanium

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 09:43 AM

I want to make this composition but I don't have 200mesh MgAl, but 150 mesh and 250mesh.

 

What would you consider to work better, I would say 250 Mesh or what would you think? :)



#35 FlaMtnBkr

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 03:20 PM

Finer will probably make smaller and faster flashes. Honestly I would just pick the one you have the most of.
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#36 Livingston

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 11:38 PM

Titanium those will work!! I would try using half of each mesh size for a starting point of experimentation. After making a small batch with each separate sizes.

#37 Titanium

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 03:52 AM

Ok thank you both, I will try today :)

#38 stix

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 04:13 AM

Additional info on Winokur # 20 Glitter, or as i call it... King's Glitter!

 

This has been the most amazing glitter formula i have ever seen, and used for years. Pretty much non-toxic materials and the result gives you glitter stars with flashes so large and loud, the almost look like strobe or ''softened'' crackling comets. My all time favorite! So i nick-named it ''King's Glitter''. The formula:

 

Potassium Nitrate                  48

Sulfur                                    17

MgAl 200 mesh                     12 (like portland cement)

Charcoal (pine)                     10

Sodium Bicarbonate               5

Iron Oxide red                        4

Dextrin                                   4

 

All ingredients must be very fine, if you use fertilizer grade KNO3 and/or Bicarbonate, ballmill it first to a very fine powder. Sieve the ingredients and ''diaper'' them to a homogeneous mass.  It is critical when you make stars out of this, to use a minimum amount of water. Too much water somewhat kills the effect. Personally i always use a starplate when making these babies. Add just enough water/alcohol (75/25) to make it a little bit damp, just enough to hold it together when you squeeze a hand full in your palm. 

 

VARIATIONS:

 

The color and size of the spritzels (exploding sparks) can be altered by using different types of charcoal. On average the ''heavier'' coals, (oak, beech etc) give more golden sparks but also a very long delay. It may also cause less spritzels to form. I also tried Willow charcoal and it gave slightly smaller ''whiter'' sparks. Enough room to experiment!

 

PINE COAL

This charcoal is my favorite because the natural growing cycle of the pine tree gives soft wood followed by a layer of hard wood during season changes. The charcoal resembles this. The soft charcoal mostly works ''onboard'' the burning star and helps to drive off the spritzels. The more hard charcoal acts in the process of forming the actual spritzels. 

 

Altering delay:

 

The amount of Sodium Bicarbonate can be altered to change the delay. By increasing/decreasing the Bicarbonate by 1% one can finetune the delay. This might come in hand when you want to make smaller stars and bigger comets with this formula.

 

More Bicarbonate = longer delay

Less Bicarbonate = shorter delay

 

For further reading on understanding glitter i strongly suggest:

 

GLITTER chemistry & techniques  by Lloyd Scott Oglesby

 

 

 

Thanks for that spitfire.

 

This comp looks like a perfect intro into star making for me. I have all the ingredients so it's doable, but i'll be taking my time. I'll also need to make a star gun for testing purposes and go from there, ie. star mine, a small shell perhaps.

 

 

I would avoid leaving this particular composition sealed up overnight.  A normal formula would be fine.  This one containing nitrate, magnalium, and sodium bicarbonate could begin to react.  Having it sealed with escalate this reaction.  MJW actually just experienced this inadvertently.  20-30 min should be fine, overnight probably would be too long.

 

Fair warning on the Ti.  Too many coarse particles in glitter mixes can lead to excessive fallout.

 

Thanks Mumbles, does this mean that it would be ok if the mix is stored overnight "unsealed" or should I make the stars asap? I'm assuming the reaction issue is caused by being dampened with water.

 

So when I cut my stars (or pump them) and then dry them - they can be stored without any "reaction" problems because they are dry?

 

Cheers.


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#39 mabuse00

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 07:30 AM

 

does this mean that it would be ok if the mix is stored overnight "unsealed" or should I make the stars asap? I'm assuming the reaction issue is caused by being dampened with water.

The dry mixture can be stored of course, but once you wet the mix it should be processed immediately.

 

 

So when I cut my stars (or pump them) and then dry them - they can be stored without any "reaction" problems because they are dry?

Yes.

Once they are really dry, all reactions should stop. Be aware that this make take some time, depending on the conditions where you live. Round about a week or so.


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#40 GalFisk

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 01:27 AM

I judge mine as dry when the foul smell is gone. If your dextrin has a smell (my homemade had) you may start smelling that instead.
Someone mentioned that W20 should not smell foul if the sulfur used was completely acid free. That jives with the smell (SO2 is what it seems like), and that some report no reaction. I imagine mixing the suspect ingredients (S, MgAl, KNO3, NaHCO3) in pairs and threes and wetting the different mixes will suss out the cause.




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