Extrarius Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I'm trying to learn to make impact-initiated pyrotechnic devices (primarily smoke "bombs"), and several of the sources about this type of device suggest using chemicals I can't readily find. The most commonly listed hard-to-find chemical is red phosphorus, which seems to be burdened with regulations from the DEA. I've tried reading the regulations, and as far as I can tell, it is legal to have and use as long as you stick to pyro compositions (and don't try making restricted pharmaceuticals). Does anybody else have knowledge on this subject (I'm not looking for legal advice, just other people's experiences and interpretations). If it is legal to posses in the US, the only source I've found is ebay, where somebody in the US is selling it for about $10/gram (I don't need much) and somebody outside the US is selling it for about $50/30grams. Also common are phosphorus-containing chemicals, such as "phosphorus sesquisulfide", which I haven't been able to find for sale anywhere, although as far as I can tell, it is not heavily regulated or restricted - I just can't find any. The third element I'm having a hard time finding in pyro-ready form is "zirconium". From the reading I've done, it looks like zirconium can't be in any commercially-sold consumer pyrotechnic devices, but I haven't seen any information on general regulations or restrictions on zirconium. Unfortunately, the rather common diamond-substitute "cubic zirconium" makes searching for this even more difficult than for other chemicals. Information on any chemicals you know of for "match compositions" or "impact initiation compositions" and possible suppliers is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Red P is very difficult to get because of meth... although an older friend of mine recently told me he has 40lbs of it in his mag. There is a guy in Oregon who has halfnium, who may be able to get zirconium (the Halfnium contains about 25% zirconium I was told). I got some just to collect it... it's more or less turnings/shavings. Burns bright just like titanium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 In several cases you run into supply/demand issues or shipping issues as the real roadblocks in obtaining certain things. Phosphorus sesquisulfide just has little to no demand outside of commercial match production. Your best bet might be to contact a firm manufacturing matches to see if you can get some from them. Alternatively, antimony trisulfide might prove to be an acceptable substitute. Zirconium is not illegal in any real way. Shipping, and cost, tends to be the issue that most people run into. I'm not sure if consumer pyrotechnic devices are banned from including it, but I know for a fact that it is used in some stage and professional products. The real issue may just be that it's not on the pre-defined list of chemicals covered under the EX number for consumer pyrotechnics. Not being on this list doesn't make them banned or illegal, just too much of a hassle to deal with for most companies. Occasionally skylighter or firefox will obtain some Zr for sale. Keep your eyes out for that. Red phosphorus is not technically illegal to possess. It's probably not something you want to openly purchase if you intend to keep a low profile though. There are ways to obtain it, but it tends to be heavily watched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) There are very few match making facilities left in this country, maybe only two (I think I heard). One of them is in Jaffery, NH called D.D. Bean. I would be very surprised if they were willing to sell anything to anyone. I'm sure they are on constant guard watching for theft or trespassing. My brother lives about five miles from them, so I've driven by there many times. The buildings themself look like they were constructed from match sticks. It's a bonfire waiting to happen. My father who used to be an industrial hygienist (OSHA inspector) in the state of New Hampshire has visited them on a couple occasions. He was a pretty lenient inspector, and would openly laugh when remembering his visits there. He said these guys would be covered from head to toe with various chemicals... Not sure if they were ever cited for anything, most likely not. Edited March 5, 2014 by ddewees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 My experience with OSHA is that they tend to be more reactionary to an accident than anything. If it was a general visit, they might leave with a list of "recommendations". However, if there was an accident, especially a fatality, they won't leave until they issue a fine for something. As for the chemicals, I've heard of a few people with Red Phosphorus, but I think with the DEA attention, I would stay away. Legal or not, that is attention I would want to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksilver Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) Just so people know: there is no law pertaining to the sale of Al in the USA. There is a CIVIL Injunction on some pyro suppliers due to the Child Protective Act (& some other issues; some of them complex) - mostly to do w/ bangers).A source I have used is roofing sealant. Some places sell it with Al and fibers which are a serious pain to clean up. But there are about 3 or 4 brands with no fibers. You WILL need a lot of solvent: most likely the cheapest way to go is to get a gallon of Xylene for about $15 which may clean out a 5 gallon bucket of about 17lbs+. You put SOME solvent in and let it work around (with a stick) for about 10minutes and let it settle. Scoop from the BOTTOM and you'll get your paint-grade Al. Spread that out on a Pyrex glass wide cooking pan & wash it down with solvent once more. Do this until you can't get any more out: evaporate, ball mill with lead spheres when nearly DRY (+ add a little water of something to keep the tiny particulate IN)! And you'll get between 325-600 mesh of Alcan. That way you can do it outside. Otherwise get a GOOD breathing mask & keep away from living things like your family & pets). OCCASIONALLY you can get an opened 55 gal. drum for a VERY good price but that's going to cost you in solvent. Do NOT be tempted to use gasoline. That's a nightmare waiting to happen (due to fumes, etc). Xylene is very manageable with proper breathing safety (low fume level / fast evaporation period).The top "ink-grade" Al can be bought w/ a business license direct from various suppliers. Mil-spec is generally crap (the Al....they also have Ni Ti, Cu & much more for serious military surplus outfits but you either need a business license or buy in pound lots). The reason the Mil Al is not that great is it's generally shaving, sweepings, etc that have contaminants in them & often they leave it to the end user to size it. That can be even more of a mess than roofing Al. I have cleaned up a milling shop for free (I asked to just keep the sweepings) and cleaning the crud out made it barely worth it. But with Mg or Mg/Al or Ti going for the price it sells for - it's a serious option IF you come away with 20-40lbs of material you KNOW is[what it is]. Like 6000 series Al is soft and flakes well, 7000 series (like aluminum arrows) is VERY brittle & very tough to flake. Aircraft-Mg is very brittle so it is tough to work. I know someone who made a kiln to make Mg/Al and I sampled it....it wasn't bad at all. But the work is serious & you REALLY need caution when working with a melt of that nature.If you are serious about the hobby, you need a business license (& perhaps a "20" or "50" ATF license: especially if you want to apprentice firework shows & have to qualify for their insurance). Then you can buy from the SAME people that pyro suppliers do. Legal chemicals are out there much more than most people realize. Keep it safe, legal, & sane. Edited May 2, 2014 by quicksilver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 One must also consider the "total " cost of material ( solvent and the starting material) as well as time needed to extract the metal from something like roofing coating . It is a great resource if Al is not available to you , or restricted to your location. As for the cost, it seems that it may be hard to beat the costs of going in on a Co--op purchase with a few fellow pyros . and get a drum . It should knock the price to around the $5-$7 range for bright grades and $7-10 for the dark stuff. But as Quicksilver stated there are many resources of material that have the valuable AL flake in them, if your willing to take on the cleaning task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Why not use the kitchen blender method, which will yield material from corse to fine enough for flash in a short time, and doesn't involve any hazardous or expensive solvens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Milling metal powder has its own risk, too many stories of spontaneous combustion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AldoSPyro Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Zirconium shouldnt be a problem, i know many chemical suppliers who sell zirconium metal. You can buy it from http://www.elementsales.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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