maho Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 My attempt to make my first batch of black powder has been impeded. I ordered 10lbs of potassium nitrate (I know way too much, but it was only a couple of bucks more than a single pound) from alpha chemicals. Instead of KNO3, I received Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4). I guess I'm curious to see if this is useful at all in the pyrotechnics world. If so, I may keep it, otherwise they can have it back. I was also thinking about selling it, considering it is significantly more expensive than what I ordered. I paid about $22 for the KNO3 and they sent me close to $100 worth of KMnO4. I'm used to seeing it in chemistry labs at work/school. We use it in 1ml volumes or drops (in solution), now I have 10lbs of course granules at home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Not really usefull in pyro. It get's used for flash, but that type of flash is known to be instable. Best thing would propably be to just sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzoMittle Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I second the selling if you are comfortable with shipping and regulations. If not send it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LambentPyro Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Reselling it is your best bet, then buy KNO3 from me and you won't have to worry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maho Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 I sent them an email. Maybe they'll say just keep it considering it will cost about $20 to ship it back, and still send me the kno3 LLambent what's your email? I may be in touch with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie1016 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Nooooo keep it and sell it! Grab your kno3 of lambent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maho Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 I seriously may just sell it on ebay and keep one bag for myself. I could easily get $20/2lb bag. I'll have excess money to kick into the ball mill This hobby is starting to pay for itself haha. The glycerine/KMnO4 reaction may be useful/entertaining way to start our bonfires in the summer. It seems reasonably safe, as long as you keep your distance. Anyone have any insight on that? I'm curious now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LambentPyro Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I sent them an email. Maybe they'll say just keep it considering it will cost about $20 to ship it back, and still send me the kno3 LLambent what's your email? I may be in touch with you.lambentveteran@gmail.com Nooooo keep it and sell it! Grab your kno3 of lambent!Thanks for the advertising, haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyroman2498 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 i would be interested in the KMnO4 , because i have ALOT of uses for it in the lab , Explicitly for and Extreme oxidizer and used in making Manganese dioxide and sometimes will be used in a chlorine generator. But sense you guys probably dont work in a lab it would be of no use to a pyro , besides if you wanted to make Manganese dioxide for rockets. Anyways i rec-emend sell it on ebay for about 19 - 22Lb ( Thats how much i pay for lab grade stuff anyways ) Have fun Stay Safe and Stay Green ~Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I would contact the seller and make arrangements to send it back and get what you paid for. I would have a hard time sleeping at night given the price difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 The glycerol / permanganat reaction is reasonable safe to use. It will just burn with a flame, not explode. Even if you preheat the Permanganate and glycerine. But you don't wan't to set manganese Salts free into the enviroment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWJ Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I just sent you an email lambentveteran, hope you don't mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LambentPyro Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I just sent you an email lambentveteran, hope you don't mind.Not a problem! I sent you a reply just now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maho Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Just sent you a reply too. I'm just waiting on alphachem's reply to see how they want to handle it. I have access to a bunch of glycerin too but from what I saw, the reaction is just "cool" and not really useful unless you're trying to start an emergency fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Pot Permanganate is not a useful pyro chemical and it does react with several things. I'd like a gram or two but that much I'd want out of the way very quickly, -send it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWJ Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I just went to http://alphachemicals.com/ and I didn't see where they sell either chemical KN03 or KMn04. Is this where you bought it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Keep the KMnO4 and try to learn from it by experimenting with it in very small (1g max.) amounts. The glycerin experiment is relatively (relatively) harmless. You can repeat this experiment with brake fluid, ethylene glycol, and propylene glycol. Just use small amounts and common sense. Avoid mixing it with chlorites or peroxides. Those mixes are extremely unstable and are likely to ignite in your face or hands. Be extremely wary of mixing it with finely divided metals. The usual such compounds are explosive flashes. Very dangerous. Don't grind it with organic compounds, especially sugar. You will or likely will get a flame or an explosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LambentPyro Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Stop giving advice for making mixtures that do not have their use in Pyro. First Chlorate-Sulfur flash and now KMnO4 with metals. KMnO4 has no use in Pyro and playing with it will get you hurt or property damaged. The only flash that we honestly need is our KP and our 5413 Al, it produces great results, and has ways of "safely" mixing it. Compared to Mg flashes, I think it's safe to say this is relatively stable, but by no means should it be stored. Al powders have a shelf life, with a presence of an Oxidizer, you're asking for trouble. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maserface Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Stop giving advice for making mixtures that do not have their use in Pyro. First Chlorate-Sulfur flash and now KMnO4 with metals. KMnO4 has no use in Pyro and playing with it will get you hurt or property damaged. The only flash that we honestly need is our KP and our 5413 Al, it produces great results, and has ways of "safely" mixing it. Compared to Mg flashes, I think it's safe to say this is relatively stable, but by no means should it be stored. Al powders have a shelf life, with a presence of an Oxidizer, you're asking for trouble.He actually told him not to mix it with fine metals, and as for storage life of standard AL flash, I have some salutes sitting in storage that have been there for years, are you saying that I'm at risk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LambentPyro Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 He actually told him not to mix it with fine metals, and as for storage life of standard AL flash, I have some salutes sitting in storage that have been there for years, are you saying that I'm at risk?I mean bare powder, not enclosed in devices. Why even discuss HE and mixing it with metals in the first place? Obviously he wasn't looking to use it in the first place. I am sure he also doesn't have chlorites or peroxides on hand. Keep it apples to apples... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyroman2498 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Stop giving advice for making mixtures that do not have their use in Pyro. First Chlorate-Sulfur flash and now KMnO4 with metals. KMnO4 has no use in Pyro and playing with it will get you hurt or property damaged. The only flash that we honestly need is our KP and our 5413 Al, it produces great results, and has ways of "safely" mixing it. Compared to Mg flashes, I think it's safe to say this is relatively stable, but by no means should it be stored. Al powders have a shelf life, with a presence of an Oxidizer, you're asking for trouble.xD , did you read what he posted , He's Telling him a simple chemistry experiment that most starting chemists would do . This was one of the first experiments i did, but i never wore gloves , at the time i didnt know that KMnO4 oxidizes skin and turns it brown. The chemical chameleon is also a nice experiment, add a sugar , usually sucrose , to a alkaline solution of KOH or NaOH, than add a solution of KMnO4 . the solution will change colors and its just a cool thing to watch. Also KMnO4 and glycerin are used to ignite thermite, explicitly for someone who wants to make their own elements , the impurity's from the KMnO4/Glycerin reaction are washed away with water leaving you one less impurity. If you want my honest opinion , i think you guys are to "Hyped Up " about the KMnO4 , if your not dumb and careless its safe, i mean for god's sake they sell 5lb bottles at lows and home depot for water purification . know the risks and dangers and avoid incompatibility's.just because i have 10lbs of chlorate, or HF sitting around dosnt mean its gonna suddenly react a kill me.if i was stupid and stored the HF near oxidizers like chlorate , or if i stored the chlorate near a drum of sulfuric acid or finely milled MgAl , than yes i pose a big risk of something horrible happening if one or the other got out of its container, Keep it stored separate from the incompatibilities,( H2SO4 is very dangerous to store near KMnO4 because if mixed they make a oily substance that catches damn near everything on fire, this substance is called Manganese(VII)oxide,or Manganese Heptoxide, just thought i would point that out ) I do relies your trying to keep this guy safe, and i think he appreciates that . Anyways have a great wonderful safe day StaySafe and Stay Green ~Steven 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maho Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) I just went to http://alphachemicals.com/ and I didn't see where they sell either chemical KN03 or KMn04. Is this where you bought it? They have an amazon store. I bought it from there. They apparently don't even sell KMnO4 on either store. I'm not sure how it was sent to me... I mean bare powder, not enclosed in devices. Why even discuss HE and mixing it with metals in the first place? Obviously he wasn't looking to use it in the first place. I am sure he also doesn't have chlorites or peroxides on hand. Keep it apples to apples... I'm probably going to just sell it. It's relatively expensive and I'm not interested in it. It would result in a nice little profit. I thought it would be interesting to keep one bag and start one of our bonfires with it though. Maybe one day I'll be looking at HE but right now I like all of my limbs and am just trying to figure out how to make basic flash and blackpowder. Peroxides worry me, I remember going over synthesis where you create a beaker full of unstable HE if you added the wrong thing. Edited February 6, 2014 by maho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maho Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 xD , did you read what he posted , He's Telling him a simple chemistry experiment that most starting chemists would do . This was one of the first experiments i did, but i never wore gloves , at the time i didnt know that KMnO4 oxidizes skin and turns it brown. The chemical chameleon is also a nice experiment, add a sugar , usually sucrose , to a alkaline solution of KOH or NaOH, than add a solution of KMnO4 . the solution will change colors and its just a cool thing to watch. Also KMnO4 and glycerin are used to ignite thermite, explicitly for someone who wants to make their own elements , the impurity's from the KMnO4/Glycerin reaction are washed away with water leaving you one less impurity. If you want my honest opinion , i think you guys are to "Hyped Up " about the KMnO4 , if your not dumb and careless its safe, i mean for god's sake they sell 5lb bottles at lows and home depot for water purification . know the risks and dangers and avoid incompatibility's.just because i have 10lbs of chlorate, or HF sitting around dosnt mean its gonna suddenly react a kill me.if i was stupid and stored the HF near oxidizers like chlorate , or if i stored the chlorate near a drum of sulfuric acid or finely milled MgAl , than yes i pose a big risk of something horrible happening if one or the other got out of its container, Keep it stored separate from the incompatibilities,( H2SO4 is very dangerous to store near KMnO4 because if mixed they make a oily substance that catches damn near everything on fire, this substance is called Manganese(VII)oxide,or Manganese Heptoxide, just thought i would point that out ) I do relies your trying to keep this guy safe, and i think he appreciates that . Anyways have a great wonderful safe day StaySafe and Stay Green ~Steven Sorry for the double post, I didn't see this last post. I'm actually going for my chemistry and biology degrees right now so I'm somewhat familiar. They don't teach us about HE in undergrad, unless it's "Do not do... If you do, let me know and I'll go home for the day, because you're going to lift the roof" Actual quote from my previous ochem professor, he said it all the time. Thanks for the concern guys. I guess it's better to know what not to do before trying something you're unsure of. I can say I do not have concentrated peroxides or chlorates sitting around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaMtnBkr Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Do you just like veterans? Don't understand why it's in your email address if you're only 16? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krakra Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I guess I'm curious to see if this is useful at all in the pyrotechnics world. I use permanganate/iron dust mixture as a priming composition. They say it can be rolled onto wet stars, but i plainly wet it with little water and press tablets with cut-off syringe. Once dry, the tablets are surprisingly hard. They burn reasonably fast, with almost no sparks and leave heavy yellowish-orange-hot molten residue that ignite many thermal-resistant compositions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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