Smokeless Powder as dangerous as black powder?

[dbooksta]

Simply put, it takes heavy confinement for smokeless powder to cause a brisiant blast while BP can become brisiant inside a paper container.

 

BP was by far a bigger risk to schools compared to smokeless... Unless contained in a well made pipe, you just cant get the flame front to propagate fast enough with smokeless.

 

Are there any examples of unmodified smokeless powder producing a brisant blast? I've seen documentation of several catastrophic failures on heavy-barrelled bolt rifles, and while the barrel may rupture and action can separate at weak points I've never seen evidence of the shattering associated with true HE. And these are scenarios (e.g., previous bullet lodged in bore) in which the pressure is estimated to be substantially into the hundreds of thousands of psi before failure.

[bubba153]

I've accidentally made dry pucks from double-base powder when the solvent apparently attacked the container seal and evaporated. The resulting dry pucks would burn vigorously (like a moderately fast star), but when stuck with a rifle bullet the bare pucks would either detonate, or perhaps undergo a brisk deflagration like flash. In one case, residual solvent may have been partially responsible (nitromethane), but in the others the solvent was acetone. I had no way to measure the velocity, but unconfined dry pucks made a rather sharp crack/boom when shot.

[dbooksta]

That might be causing it to become impact sensitive. When you dissolve double base powders into acetone, the NC and NG can separate.

 

Would there be a reliable way of detecting or confirming separation? E.g., does it separate into masses so you would actually be able to see liquid drops (of NG ... without waiting years for it to sweat out)? Or would it only be at a microscopic level? (If the latter I would normally look for separation by milling and centrifuging, but obviously not with these chemicals!)

 

Can NC be made to detonate in any form? Or is this really just a question of whether the NG in a double-base powder can be compelled to separate and/or detonate?

[BurritoBandito]

I think were getting into an area of discussion which may not be appropriate. So, without going into too much detail, yes NC can absolutely detonate.

[dagabu]

 

Are there any examples of unmodified smokeless powder producing a brisant blast? I've seen documentation of several catastrophic failures on heavy-barrelled bolt rifles, and while the barrel may rupture and action can separate at weak points I've never seen evidence of the shattering associated with true HE. And these are scenarios (e.g., previous bullet lodged in bore) in which the pressure is estimated to be substantially into the hundreds of thousands of psi before failure.

 

I am sure there are many, I am not an HE guy, I suggest you move this on to the HE section for a conclusion.

[Exo]

Mumbles, on 17 Jun 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

That might be causing it to become impact sensitive. When you dissolve double base powders into acetone, the NC and NG can separate.

 

I use smokeless rifle powder to make my NC Lacquer, for binding stars etc.

It doesn't say on the tin if its double or single base, and haven't been able to find any info on Winchesters web site or google if it is or not.

Should I stop using a smokeless powder for NC lacquer if I can't make sure it's single base, as I don't want to increase the sensitive of my compositions, especially with NG!

Edited June 30, 2014 by Exo

[BurritoBandito]

As far as I know double based powder works fine for NC lacquer. That's what I use it for. It take a pretty solid whack to initiate any reaction from it.

[Exo]

Its difficult for me to find any info on double and triple base nitrocellulose gun powders(NCGP) for use in making NC lacquer for pyro.

There are different percentages of NG added to the different types/brands of double and triple base NCGP, also other additives like graphite.

Would it be wise to stay away from the NCGP with high NG content and or graphite, etc. for use in making pyro. NC lacquer.

 

I found this older thread about NC, good safety info in it about spontaneous ignition of NCGP from decomposition.

 

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/6408-be-careful-with-nitrocellulose/page-1

 

Other Ref links:

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_powder.htm

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/april2002/mccord.htm#disablemobile

Edited June 30, 2014 by Exo

[BurritoBandito]

What brand of smokeless powder do you have? I'm sure the appropriate search phrase in google will turn up a MSDS for it.

 

Edit: The following quote is from http://www.chuckhawks.com/smokeless_powder.htm

The stuff that we shooters know as smokeless powder was introduced as a black powder replacement in the 1880's. Besides generating a lot less smoke, smokeless powder burns much cleaner and more efficiently than black powder, greatly reducing powder fouling and increasing the performance of the shotgun, handgun, and rifle cartridges in which it is used. It is also much safer to produce than black powder, which has saved many lives over the years.

 

I don't think I agree with smokeless powder being safer to manufacture than BP. Especially with regards to double and triple based varieties. IMO, ball milling BP is much safer than performing nitrations. I'd be happy to be corrected on this if I am wrong.

Edited June 30, 2014 by BurritoBandito

[Mumbles]

As far as track record goes, BP is almost certainly more dangerous to manufacture. It's actually the corning step that is the most dangerous, not the milling. Nitration of cellulose may appear to be more dangerous due to the caustic components and hazardous fumes, but overall it's really not too bad from an industrial safety point of view. The processing into grains is certainly safer.

[Exo]

I guess there have been a lot of BP factories that have gone up over the ages that gives it such a bad track record aposed to modern manufacturing of NCGP.

 

I'm using an old tin of Winchester 571 ball powder that I had leftover, can't find a MSDS on it but there are some for Winchester ball powders. Interesting to note the NG content can range from 0-60%, plus other secret ingredients upto 10%.

 

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/msds/MSDS_w64.pdf

 

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS%20Files/Smokeless/Winchester/Winchester%20Smokeless%20Ball%20Powders_072811.pdf

[BurritoBandito]

I was actually thinking more in terms of runaways with NG than cellulose, though I will admit that the fumes were a big part in the dangers I was considering. Surely more people are not injured (per capita) from BP than NG? Perhaps people trying to synth NG tend to take greater care in following safety procedures, or are generally more competent/experienced. Then again, maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about.

[taiwanluthiers]

In industry it is most likely done inside a closed system so unless the containers explode, there's no danger to exposure.

 

I have never seen containers of smokeless powder say whether they are single or double base, but I would surmise that pistol powders are double base while rifle powders (like IMR 8xxx, forgot the exact model number) are single base. That's because pistol powders burn faster than rifle powders. Of course in Taiwan there's no way to purchase containers of smokeless powder, the only way to get them is those .22 blanks used for nail guns, and I'm sure those are double base.

 

I remember a long time ago, I dissolved the powder from some .223 ammunition in acetone and I got this weird headache afterwards, so I am thinking that's double based as well (from NG exposure).

[BurritoBandito]

On the back of a can of Unique it has the ingredient listed as

 

Nitrocellulose CASRN 9004-70-0

Nitroglycerine CASRN 55-63-0

Diphenylamine CASRN 122-39-4

Ethyl Centralite CASRN 85-98-3

Rosin CASRN 8050-09-7

Polyester NJTSRN 800928-5003

 

The MSDS is also available online and has the ingredients/percentages.

 

Edit: The Unique powder is intended for use with pistols and is indeed double based, but the Reloder 22 is also double based, and is for rifles. The ingredients are

 

Nitrocellulose CASRN 9004-70-0

Nitroglycerine CASRN 55-63-0

Potassium Bitartrate CASRN 868-14-4

Diamyl Pthalate CASRN 131-18-0

Diphenylamine CASRN 122-39-4

Edited July 2, 2014 by BurritoBandito

[Jakenbake]

They make single and double base powders for pistol/shotgun and all sizes of rifle. The Dupont company had there single base with IMR and the double base is Hercules. Every ball powder I know of is Double base. Not all of them say if they are SB or DB but with some research it's easy to find out.