ballmill Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'm using 70/30/2 +3 mix using sodium benzoate, red iron oxide and vaseline for my whistle rockets on wolters tooling. I believe I'm having a moisture issue because the rockets don't have enough thrust to leave the tube. I'm making the fuel correctly using the bag method and laquer thinner as the solvent. I did try my benz in the oven for an hour however I've noticed my red iron oxide is damp. Considering I'm only adding a very small amount of catalyst to my mix, is this small amount of moisture effecting my rocket in such a huge way? Its either my wet catalyst, or the sodium benzoate isn't fine enough. It is air milled from hobby chemical supply if anyone is familiar with this supplier. Any input would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballmill Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 If I substitute potassium benzoate for sodium benzoate will I notice any difference in sound output? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) If I substitute potassium benzoate for sodium benzoate will I notice any difference in sound output? I'm using 70/30/2 +3 mix using sodium benzoate, red iron oxide and vaseline for my whistle rockets on wolters tooling. I believe I'm having a moisture issue because the rockets don't have enough thrust to leave the tube. I'm making the fuel correctly using the bag method and laquer thinner as the solvent. Yes but only slight changes. WHISTLE TESTS I have no idea why you don't have power in your whistle, I have made whistle using all sorts of bad materials and they always seem to have some snort. I dont dry my Benzoate and I simply blade mill it myself then use the white gas/mineral oil wet baggy version with great results. Dry some out and see if it changes. Also, I use 70/30/1/3. -dag Edited February 14, 2012 by dagabu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballmill Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'm considering switching to Kbenz since its less hydroscopic and also a finer powder from what I read. It always seems to be a hit or miss when I make fuel when I use the same technique everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'm considering switching to Kbenz since its less hydroscopic and also a finer powder from what I read. It always seems to be a hit or miss when I make fuel when I use the same technique everytime. Not so, they both come in prills, flake and powder. I have a bag of prills that I just use a blender to reduce in size, screen through a 100 mesh screen and then re-blend the stuff that does not pass. I have had no issues with Mineral Oil bound whistle though, I shot a couple dozen at PGI last year that were in a box in the magazine in 90% humidity all week and still worked as they should have. Maybe I am just lucky? -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drthrust Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) no not lucky dag.. spot on, with k benzo motors the devil is in the detail, fuel and oxidizer particle size is critical. "ballmill" treat yourself to a few screens , i like yourself have had varied performance results, mine due to inferior mixing, under milling etc rushing essentially bad habits. a couple things i found to help ,i now coffee grind then mill the iron oxide and k benzo together as i find the benzoate a little waxy and hard to break/mill down as it sticks to my milling media. mixing the two together helps eliminate this secondly im not convinced about 70,30 as i found a interesting article in AFN which suggests good performance from 64,32,1, 3 Vaseline for k benzo motors which is the same ratio as a sodium salicylate whistle, i tried it and was happy with the results Edited February 17, 2012 by drthrust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebird Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I am not implying this is the problem. When I first started I made great whistle. Was given some perc from a known source. Well when that ran out I started to have problems exactly like you describe. Upside down flare. It drove me nuts and I had no idea at the time what was the problem ( rookie mistake ). I made 15 or more batches of fuel. All the same. The perc I was now using was fine for everything but whistle. I was about at the end of my rope with rockets. So I thought I would start over and get new chems as a last resort. Bingo. Perc would not make whistle. Even tried later just to prove to my self and that was it. All kinds of whys went through my head and this was the last thing I suspected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I am not implying this is the problem. When I first started I made great whistle. Was given some perc from a known source. Well when that ran out I started to have problems exactly like you describe. Upside down flare. It drove me nuts and I had no idea at the time what was the problem ( rookie mistake ). I made 15 or more batches of fuel. All the same. The perc I was now using was fine for everything but whistle. I was about at the end of my rope with rockets. So I thought I would start over and get new chems as a last resort. Bingo. Perc would not make whistle. Even tried later just to prove to my self and that was it. All kinds of whys went through my head and this was the last thing I suspected. Wow! Your perc was that bad or it just didnt interact with the fuel? -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebird Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 1329576647[/url]' post='92224']Wow! Your perc was that bad or it just didnt interact with the fuel? -dag Worked just fine for all other things. Just won't make whistle. I was told when I bought it it was Taiwanese perc. Later found out it was a very bad batch of chi perc from back in the 70's. A friend who passed away recognized the drum instantly and warned me about it I told him I had already found out the hard way. The guy who passed it off was of questionable charter. Regardless I found a person who loved it for salutes and it is now gone. Good riddens . This perc just about had me thinking it was me and my methods. Well those same methods stick big shells in the air and not one thing has changed except the perc. Based on the origanal post I would look toward this and at least give it some thought. If you question these areas I can send you out a sample on known chems and you could try againSteve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FREAKYDUTCHMEN Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Yes but only slight changes. WHISTLE TESTS I have no idea why you don't have power in your whistle, I have made whistle using all sorts of bad materials and they always seem to have some snort. I dont dry my Benzoate and I simply blade mill it myself then use the white gas/mineral oil wet baggy version with great results. Dry some out and see if it changes. Also, I use 70/30/1/3. -dag Those tests are made by one person with probably one type Kbenz (too coarse stuff I guess). Now this is not really representative for the whole pyro community.During my study chemistry, I have learned one important rule; "One test is not a test". Fine Kbenz is really the best choice for whistle fuel, in my findings. It isn't hygroscopic the sound is really loud (even with 76-23 + CuOCl) and the stuff makes a very powerful fuel.And as far as I know, only this stuff is used by professionals. I can't believe a little bit of moisture in you FeO could be the problem, this would add less than 0,1% of moisture to your fuel. I think it isn't mixed well enough. Kneading a ziplockbag isn't a proper way to mix things really. But I guess you'll notice it by the color of your grain. Edited February 18, 2012 by FREAKYDUTCHMEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Those tests are made by one person with probably one type Kbenz (too coarse stuff I guess). Now this is not really representative for the whole pyro community.During my study chemistry, I have learned one important rule; "One test is not a test". Fine Kbenz is really the best choice for whistle fuel, in my findings. It isn't hygroscopic the sound is really loud (even with 76-23 + CuOCl) and the stuff makes a very powerful fuel.And as far as I know, only this stuff is used by professionals. I can't believe a little bit of moisture in you FeO could be the problem, this would add less than 0,1% of moisture to your fuel. I think it isn't mixed well enough. Kneading a ziplockbag isn't a proper way to mix things really. But I guess you'll notice it by the color of your grain. I agree that " is not really representative for the whole pyro community" as you say nor was it presented as such. The tests Danny did were done only to give an idea of the differences in sound output and tone, the benzo was the same and the catalyst was changed to accomplish that. Also, the "Bag" method was designed to allow for a controlled environment to mix the chems together, it took years or research by several people to develop a system that works as well if not better then conventional methods without unnecessary exposure to thinners and such. If one wishes to, one may make a homogeneous mixture by screening first and then doing the "gab" "bag" (my dyslexia showing) method when adding the thinner. -dag Edited February 20, 2012 by dagabu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebird Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hell I just use a 5 gallon pail and a paint mixer hooked to a drill. 26 pounds at a time. It cracks me up when people think they have to have the hottest whistle fuel out there then have to temper by adding coal or increments of slow whistle. Why the heck would you do that. Some. BAll mill their fuel some make their own perc to make sure it is pure. Then they have to tune their rockets forever to get them to quit CATO ing. The bag method has won PGI rockets competitions many times and does a damn fine job of lifting 10 inch ball shells on rockets. So to discount this method is nothing more then a opinion and a poor one at that. We all have different methods I am sure some will think I am crazy for mine. What ever I really don't care. I find it foolish to knock others when they are the ones leading the pack with their ideas. To each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hell I just use a 5 gallon pail and a paint mixer hooked to a drill. 26 pounds at a time. It cracks me up when people think they have to have the hottest whistle fuel out there then have to temper by adding coal or increments of slow whistle. Why the heck would you do that. Some. BAll mill their fuel some make their own perc to make sure it is pure. Then they have to tune their rockets forever to get them to quit CATO ing. The bag method has won PGI rockets competitions many times and does a damn fine job of lifting 10 inch ball shells on rockets. So to discount this method is nothing more then a opinion and a poor one at that. We all have different methods I am sure some will think I am crazy for mine. What ever I really don't care. I find it foolish to knock others when they are the ones leading the pack with their ideas. To each their own. "26 pounds at a time" I like that! Most I have ever made at once is 1k. Is that for that 3" monster? -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
californiapyro Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 cplmac says a 3 inch monster takes up to 10 lbs of fuel firebird, if you don't mind me asking, who are you IRL? your fireworks are quite impressive and you seem far too knowledgeable to just be "a guy on a forum" sidenote: can I use a coffee grinder to mil my kbenz? will it be fine enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 firebird, if you don't mind me asking, who are you IRL? your fireworks are quite impressive and you seem far too knowledgeable to just be "a guy on a forum" Unwritten rule CP, take it to PM -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebird Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Cali Steve Kursinsky. Just one of the guys. Kind of young i(4 years) in the hobby but have been passionate. I still have a ton to learn. I have a hammer mill I run my benzs and Sally's through. A coffee mill would be fine but I wouldMake sure what ever you are going to use will pass a 100 screen. Now that will test your patience. Cpl has some dandy stuff for sure and I have been influenced by him for sure. I should be testing my 3 inch by late next month. Plan is to fire a 16 on it. Fun stuff. All pressing will be done via remote from over 100 ft away. I feel a mishap would be terminal. Really anything Over a inch is scary if they blow so care and good practices should always be used. Edited February 20, 2012 by firebird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebird Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 No worries I have nothing to hideSteve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebird Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Dag that isMy normal batch of fuel. Start to finish is about a hour and a half mixing and riceing and into the drying trays. I guess the way I feel is handle it once and get it put away. I may use 3-4 of these a year. I did my strobe in a large batch after I had what I wanted for rate and it has lasted me 2 years. Nice not to have to do all the processes often. Edited February 20, 2012 by firebird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Dag that isMy normal batch of fuel. Start to finish is about a hour and a half mixing and riceing and into the drying trays. I guess the way I feel is handle it once and get it put away. I may use 3-4 of these a year. I did my strobe in a large batch after I had what I wanted for rate and it has lasted me 2 years. Nice not to have to do all the processes often. I completely agree, one big batch at the same time. I only use 2k a year as I only make up to 1" rockets due to space limitations but I would love to see video (pass or fail) of that rocket lifting the 16" shell! WHOOT!!!!! -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
californiapyro Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 ooh sorry, didnt know the rule. well very cool! biggest shell ive ever seen on a rocket is cpl's 12 inch willow on a 3" motor. good luck with that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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