ball mill media nickels with lead balls at the same time

[Tanner808]

i just bought a harbor freight six lb tumbler, i mill 150 gram batches of meal(bp) with 100 half inch lead balls in each of the two barrels. i milled my bp for 6 hours and it started clumping the next day i milled it another 6 hours and it was still clumping. i am wanting to get 18 hours on it and is milling it while it is clumping(mostly on the bottom of the barrel) going to make it any better or should i just stop.

so i was wondering if u can mill bp with nickels and lead balls at the same time? i am thinking that the nickels will tear up the clumps.

[dan999ification]

if it is clumping it's about done [if evrything went in dry] have you added dextrin before you milled it?

with premilled chems i get clumpy bp in 3 hours, break it up through a screen add dextrin and mill another 30 mins, after clumps have formed nothing is really happening as far as milling goes, you can end up with the ends of the jar caked with bp and the media just milling nothing in the centre, or one big ball of bp either way its not milling efficiently anymore.

you can tell the difference in sound your mill makes when its done aswell

 

dan.

[Arthur]

If it clumps then something(s) went in the mill too damp. Pull everything out, properly dry it and break the lumps and restart the milling. Adding two sorts of media will also have the effect of letting the media mill each other -and as the Nickels are harder than the lead they will mill lead off the balls. So you will get damagad nickels, worn lead balls and powder with lots of lead in it.

 

Next time put the separate ingredients on a heater dryer for a while (hours!) before use.

[warthog]

I use the same tumbler and have for more than a year now and haven't needed to run my BP for more than 4 hours to find it properly milled. I get nice, HOT BP too when I use either the balsa, willow or sometimes I make a blend f the two types of charcoal. I just use hardened lead balls I cast myself with my BP Rifle's mold. These come out at .545 caliber and 1 caliber = 1 Inch for reference. I started out with the smaller tumbler, the single jar and I still use it now and then to mill single chemicals.

 

I keep my chemicals dry by storing them in sealed buckets with desiccant packs. Before I put the chemical into the bucket I dry it. It seems like more work but it saves time at the other end since I generally don't have to re-dry them before use. There are times in the middle of the summer when humidity is, well at least it feels like it is, well above 100% relative humidity.

 

I suspect that what the others are saying is true here. Dry your chemicals first, before mixing and before you put them into the mill. Once you get the mill running, the chemicals won't be effected by the moisture in the air so you should be able to mill without issue. Some slight clumping isn't a big deal. In fact clumping isn't going to hurt the powder, just run it through a screen and break it back up. It just means you are milling too long or your chemicals are too moist to be milled easily.

 

Sulfur isn't Hygroscopic and Charcoal really isn't either unless you soak it in liquid water. KNO₃ isn't all the bad either but is likely the one you need to be drying if this is actually what is going on at all. Have you tried checking your progress every hour to see how well the milling is going and to get a good idea of when to stop yet? There usually is a bit of clumping right at first so don't worry so much if you see it after one hour. It should become less so as milling continues until you get to the point of over milling.

[Tanner808]

I live in Hawaii and it is really humid here and my kno3 is pretty clumpy I am going to try to dry it today in the sun but I am not sure wether it will dry it out or if it will just get more moist.

Has anyone tried baking thier kno3 in the oven to dry it out.

[warthog]

Yes, that is what I do but if you have a wife, GF or Mother living with you then buy a small toaster oven that you will use for this stuff and keep it in the work shop.

 

Keep the temp low, like 150-200°F ("warm" is the setting on my oven) and put a thin layer of it on a flat pan. Break up the clumps as much as possible prior to drying. Leave it in there for about 20-30 mins and it should be plenty =dry the make sure you store it in a similar fashion to the way I do. You can buy desiccant really cheap at craft shops, they use to to dry flowers. It is even reusable so when it turns whatever color it says on the pkg, then dry it out the way it says to do so on the pkg. I make small sachets of the stuff buy making bags out of cheap, relatively porous fabric (you can even get a fine mesh but it tears easily so you have to handle it carefully or it will rip open). I stuff these little bags with the loos desiccant and sew them shut and toss them into the bucket with the chemical(s). I do this for all of the really hygroscopic ones like Strontium Nitrate and Ammonium Perchlorate etc. Every ninety days or so I rejuvenate the desiccant and put it all back int the bags. This time I am going to put zippers on them, I should have the first time and it only took me a year to figure that one out. DOH!

 

I won't dry out n the sun very well unless the relative humidity is low today.

 

NEVER DRY A COMPOSITION IN THE OVEN! ONLY SINGLE CHEMICALS.

If you dry a comp in the oven you run the risk of ignition and burning the house down or worse.

Edited February 7, 2012 by warthog

[Mumbles]

The time required depends a lot on how wet your KNO3 is clearly. It took me a full 3-4hr to dry my nitrate at 250F. This was ground to -30 mesh first. This was kept unclimate controlled for about 5 years first as prills.

 

Charcoal can actually be the most hygroscopic material in BP as well. I don't have any first hand experience with that. Some people have reported the hottest possible BP from freshly ground BP though. This could be due to water not being able to penetrate, or exposing more reactive sites on the charcoal surface, or a few other things.

[oldguy]

Any hydroscopic chemical composition component and/or even charcoal can be dried very effectively in an open contained placed in a dehydrator.

 

Simply set the dehydrator on 125F and let whatever dry overnight, or a day or 2.

 

If you happen to have autoclave bags, use an impulse sealer to seal the bags.

 

They will remain DRY as a 50 year old bone in the Mojave desert for a decade.

 

 

[asilentbob]

I wouldn't worry about drying your chemicals at all.

 

Some people even spray a few milliliters of water into the mill before milling. Theory being that it may help the nitrate mix better with the charcoal.

 

Once its out of the mill your going to be wetting it anyways to either press pucks to dry and break up or force it through a screen. After this, sure dry it out with desiccant.

 

I don't think it matters all the much, so long as your consistent with how you do things every batch.

[Mumbles]

I really like gamma seal lids for storing chemicals. They keep things absolutely sealed. They'll keep everything as dry as the day you screw the lid shut. They're quite heavy duty, and were shown to protect against a shop explosion by a WPAG demonstration last year. They're not cheap, but not prohibitively expensive either. I think they're about $5-6 a piece.

 

[edit] Asilentbob, I ended up needing to dry my nitrate. It was clumping before my meal was done milling. There were chunks of charcoal still in my mix and all that. Ultimately, it was the root cause of my accident, though exacerbated by poor decisions on my part. Normally when my meal clumped, I knew it was done, but this was going overboard. I would have to break it up every hour or so.

[warthog]

I use Gamma Seals too. I also like that they come in colors so I can color code my chemicals. Red for oxidizers, Blue for Fuels, Green for Metals and the like. Makes it easier for me to keep it all organized and adds a nice but of color to the shop as well.

[Peret]

Strange, I've never had my BP clump up in the mill. I suppose that could be something to do with living in the Mojave desert, and having bones more than 50 years old.

[Tanner808]

I just tested using 100 1/2 inch lead ball media vs 95 nickels and 25 quarters (they took up about the same volume) the lead ball media bp was a little faster

It was milled for six hours

Although neither where clumping to badly the sides of the drum with the nickels where cleaner than the lead ball media drum

[dan999ification]

i may be way off here but are the coins plated steel?

 

i discovered that our pennies [uk] are when i considered using them, not the best idea ive had.

 

dan.

[cogbarry]

I use the same tumbler and have for more than a year now and haven't needed to run my BP for more than 4 hours to find it properly milled. I get nice, HOT BP too when I use either the balsa, willow or sometimes I make a blend f the two types of charcoal. I just use hardened lead balls I cast myself with my BP Rifle's mold. These come out at .545 caliber and 1 caliber = 1 Inch for reference. I started out with the smaller tumbler, the single jar and I still use it now and then to mill single chemicals.

 

I keep my chemicals dry by storing them in sealed buckets with desiccant packs. Before I put the chemical into the bucket I dry it. It seems like more work but it saves time at the other end since I generally don't have to re-dry them before use. There are times in the middle of the summer when humidity is, well at least it feels like it is, well above 100% relative humidity.

 

I suspect that what the others are saying is true here. Dry your chemicals first, before mixing and before you put them into the mill. Once you get the mill running, the chemicals won't be effected by the moisture in the air so you should be able to mill without issue. Some slight clumping isn't a big deal. In fact clumping isn't going to hurt the powder, just run it through a screen and break it back up. It just means you are milling too long or your chemicals are too moist to be milled easily.

 

Sulfur isn't Hygroscopic and Charcoal really isn't either unless you soak it in liquid water. KNO₃ isn't all the bad either but is likely the one you need to be drying if this is actually what is going on at all. Have you tried checking your progress every hour to see how well the milling is going and to get a good idea of when to stop yet? There usually is a bit of clumping right at first so don't worry so much if you see it after one hour. It should become less so as milling continues until you get to the point of over milling.

 

Warthog,

How do you harden your lead balls?

[warthog]

USA Coins aren't steel except for some rare pennies made during WWII.

 

 

Well, unless this is a loaded question Cogbarry , I will tell you. I have been casting bullets for almost 30 years now and high velocity bullets that aren't as hard as can be made will lead a barrel fast (without a jacket or gas check of course).

 

First thing is to alloy the lead with some antimony and tin (I also have a third part f this but I am sorry, I can't tell you as it is my secret). To find the right mix of these to make your alloy involves a bit of experimentation. Just keep the lead the main material and look at how pewter is made and you can find yourself a good alloy here that will work well. (Most important step is getting a good alloy)

 

The next part of this can be done with even pure lead... heat treatment. Two methods to do this and both work well.

 

First one is to cast the media as you normally would then reheat it in an oven to just below the point where it would remelt or slump. This can all be looked up for specific temps, can be done in any oven though you should keep in mind the lead will become airborne and this can poison you so plenty of ventilation in the room or work outdoors. While the lead is heating up prepare a bucket of water as COLD as you can possibly make it. Ice water is fine here and it needs to remain as COLD as possible during the entire quench. Once the lead is heated up clear through, meaning don't just warm it up, leave it in there until it is hot through and through, I leave mine for a half hour when doing it this way, CAREFULLY take it out of the oven (remember it will easily become damaged since it is nearly molten again) and immerse the media in the cold water (This is going to hiss, and pop and slash so BE CAREFUL) and leave it in there until it is COLD through and through. Be careful as you put it into the water as again, until it has cooled some it will be east to ruin the shape buy letting it hit the bucket bottom hard or being bounced by other media. Put some towels and such on the bottom of the quenching bucket(s) to cushion things. Once the lead is thoroughly cooled, I out it into a box and put that box into the freezer for a month or so to let all the crystals form properly and align etc (I am sure someone will tell me why I do this in proper scientific terms but it does make a difference). It is now ready to use and as hard as that alloy is ever likely to be. It should be a LOT more durable than using it w/o heat treating it.

 

Second method is the one I use most but is not for the Tyro because it involves having a bucket of water in your casting area with the risk of a life ending or maiming steam explosion imminently possible. For this reason, I won't be outlining it here. I will by PM on a person by person basis. I will need to have an idea of your casting experience before I tell you and please don't be too insulted, I will also need your age.

 

You can also find a lot of this by simply reading it by yourself. Casting a bullet for hardness is the same as making hard media.

Edited February 10, 2012 by warthog

[cogbarry]

USA Coins aren't steel except for some rare pennies made during WWII.

 

 

Well, unless this is a loaded question Cogbarry , I will tell you. I have been casting bullets for almost 30 years now and high velocity bullets that aren't as hard as can be made will lead a barrel fast (without a jacket or gas check of course).

 

First thing is to alloy the lead with some antimony and tin (I also have a third part f this but I am sorry, I can't tell you as it is my secret). To find the right mix of these to make your alloy involves a bit of experimentation. Just keep the lead the main material and look at how pewter is made and you can find yourself a good alloy here that will work well. (Most important step is getting a good alloy)

 

The next part of this can be done with even pure lead... heat treatment. Two methods to do this and both work well.

 

First one is to cast the media as you normally would then reheat it in an oven to just below the point where it would remelt or slump. This can all be looked up for specific temps, can be done in any oven though you should keep in mind the lead will become airborne and this can poison you so plenty of ventilation in the room or work outdoors. While the lead is heating up prepare a bucket of water as COLD as you can possibly make it. Ice water is fine here and it needs to remain as COLD as possible during the entire quench. Once the lead is heated up clear through, meaning don't just warm it up, leave it in there until it is hot through and through, I leave mine for a half hour when doing it this way, CAREFULLY take it out of the oven (remember it will easily become damaged since it is nearly molten again) and immerse the media in the cold water (This is going to hiss, and pop and slash so BE CAREFUL) and leave it in there until it is COLD through and through. Be careful as you put it into the water as again, until it has cooled some it will be east to ruin the shape buy letting it hit the bucket bottom hard or being bounced by other media. Put some towels and such on the bottom of the quenching bucket(s) to cushion things. Once the lead is thoroughly cooled, I out it into a box and put that box into the freezer for a month or so to let all the crystals form properly and align etc (I am sure someone will tell me why I do this in proper scientific terms but it does make a difference). It is now ready to use and as hard as that alloy is ever likely to be. It should be a LOT more durable than using it w/o heat treating it.

 

Second method is the one I use most but is not for the Tyro because it involves having a bucket of water in your casting area with the risk of a life ending or maiming steam explosion imminently possible. For this reason, I won't be outlining it here. I will by PM on a person by person basis. I will need to have an idea of your casting experience before I tell you and please don't be too insulted, I will also need your age.

 

You can also find a lot of this by simply reading it by yourself. Casting a bullet for hardness is the same as making hard media.

 

Thanks for the explanation and no, it wasn't a loaded question. This doesn't sound like a process I would want to go through as I have little pyro time as it is. What I was really wondering is if you were really hardening (as in heating, quenching and such) or doing something more like case hardening which only hardens a thin layer on the outside. I purchased hardened lead media and wondered if it was hardened completely or if I would notice the balls quickly losing diameter after I had worn through the hard thin layer.

 

I have zero casting experience, only a tiny bit of hardening experience as a former machinist/welder/boilermaker/steam locomotive engineer/mechanic (few!) and most of it was simply case hardening. I am somewhat familiar with the sort of things that happen when hot metal meets cold water. http://colfa.utsa.edu/users/jreynolds/Tucker/THE%20EVENT.html In this case, it wasn't the cause but locomotive boilers often exploded at the water tanks after the panicked crew added water to a boiler with a red hot crown sheet due to low water level.

 

It's an interesting subject any ways, thanks again for the explanation.

[Lucas]

ik this is WAY off topic but i need some help and cant contact admin... why cant i post new threads??

[warthog]

Happy to help!

 

You can get plenty good media that will serve you plenty long by simply using wheel weights as your "lead" and mixing this with a bit of antimony. No hardening is needed but would really make it even harder but this will work a good long time in a mill without wear. If I had money to spend I would just buy media from someone who does it right and there is one who I know of who makes good stuff and I have gotten some from in the past. Casting is a time intense operation all by itself even with a production mold like I have, hardening it takes me not much longer but if I did it like I used to do it it doubles or triples the time involved.

 

In the end it all comes down to how much time you have and what it is worth to you. I have FAR more time than money these days...

Edited February 10, 2012 by warthog

[Mumbles]

ik this is WAY off topic but i need some help and cant contact admin... why cant i post new threads??

 

I'm glad to see you took the time to read through the forum, and found the rules and FAQ.

 

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/2209-faq/

[cogbarry]

I'm glad to see you took the time to read through the forum, and found the rules and FAQ.

 

http://www.amateurpy...topic/2209-faq/

I've run into this a few times because I've ended up in this forum without being logged in. Usually because I was googling something and clicked a link to the forum. Lucas, I'm not sure if this scenario is in the FAQ but make sure you're logged in.

[dan999ification]

the rules will tell you, you have to reply before you can start a topic......... i think

[DanielC]

I use Gamma Seals too. I also like that they come in colors so I can color code my chemicals. Red for oxidizers, Blue for Fuels, Green for Metals and the like. Makes it easier for me to keep it all organized and adds a nice but of color to the shop as well.

 

 

I use the gamma seal tops also. Sportsman Guide runs a deal on them every once in a while.

One thing I found a couple weeks back is cake icing containers from the supermarket bakery.

The buckets come in quart, 1 ,3 , and 5 gallon sizes and the all have nice locking lids with an O-ring.

They will usually keep them for you, but you have to pick them up promptly or into the trash they go.

Of course you will have to wash them out before use, but a little buttercream aroma is nice when you open the container

and again they are free. I am always looking for ways to recycle or repurpose items.