Copal Gum?

[warthog]

Anyone know where I can get a few pounds of the stuff without breaking the bank?? (in the USA)

 

If not, anyone know what would be a suitable substitute for it??

 

From what I gather, shellac seems as close as I can figure but not really as close as it should be. I will give some shellac a go of course but I am hoping to find either a better substitute or some actual Copal Gum instead.

 

I want to try a Blue Lance formula I found in Lancaster, 4th ed, page 239, Blue A. I have sought a really blue looking lance formula for a while now that will burn at the same rate as the other colors I have already gotten dialed in so this one looks promising to me.

 

While I do welcome other formulae for blue lances, preferable using KClO₃ rather than KCLO₄ or anything else just because I have a ready source of really pure, good burning KClO₃ and I like the colors I get from it. I also have a good system to prime such lances already and would rather not have to rework all of that as well. I hand roll my tubes, 4" usually, from 4"x4" pieces of 30# Kraft with a rounded spindle so I can roll the end closed easily. It is a method I found in the form of a "slideshow" by Doc Ferguson" with credit to the Kentucky Bluegrass club (see attached file though it is now in Keynote/Mac format).

 

I appreciate the help.

How2-LanceTubes.key.zip

[Blackthumb]

http://woodworker.com/gum-copal-mssu-850-679.asp?utm_source=google&utm_medium=feed&gclid=CKzJpcP30q0CFQdjhwodF1pqng

[warthog]

Thanks BT! You're the best.

 

I will post up a video of the results of the lanceworks for all to see too just in case it looks good. BTW, Here is the formula.

 

KCLO₄----------64

Paris Green---32

Copal Gum-----4

 

While I am still seeking the magic KClO₃ formula for a blue, this one will do for now I hope since most of the set piece is blue with only a few highlights of other colors. While I would not make one with a monotone usually, this is a special case, it is the favorite color of a friend of mine's wife and it will be for her birthday. Now I need to mix up a small bit of it to see if it will burn at the right rate as is for me or if it will need some tweakage to get things more on an equal rate of burn...

[Blackthumb]

Find a decent source for paris green???

[warthog]

I have had a few pounds of the stuff here for a while now but I do know that Past Time has it though the price is not all that nice. n They are one of the better places to get chemicals in small amounts though and I like the people who run the place, they also keep prices as low as they are able. Paris Green and Realgar are both chems that are now quite hard to find in any real amount so I think their price if not all that bad considering all involved. In fact I may go ahead and buy some more when I am more able just so I have it.

[WSM]

KCLO₄----------64

Paris Green---32

Copal Gum-----4

 

While I am still seeking the magic KClO₃ formula for a blue, this one will do for now I hope since most of the set piece is blue with only a few highlights of other colors. While I would not make one with a monotone usually, this is a special case, it is the favorite color of a friend of mine's wife and it will be for her birthday. Now I need to mix up a small bit of it to see if it will burn at the right rate as is for me or if it will need some tweakage to get things more on an equal rate of burn...

 

Hi warthog,

 

I'd start by replacing the perchlorate with chlorate and fine tune it from there. That formula looks like it was originally chlorate anyway. Have fun and let us know how this turns out.

 

WSM

[Potassiumchlorate]

What about Lancaster Blue Pumped #1:

 

Potassium chlorate 68

Paris Green 22

Colophonium 6

Dextrin 4

 

This should be "natural" resin, the kind that you extract from pine trees. All the old compositions with Paris Green have potassium chlorate as the oxidizer and some kind of resin fuel.

[WSM]

What about Lancaster Blue Pumped #1:

Potassium chlorate 68

Paris Green 22

Colophonium 6

Dextrin 4

This should be "natural" resin, the kind that you extract from pine trees. All the old compositions with Paris Green have potassium chlorate as the oxidizer and some kind of resin fuel.

 

This looks good, but as a precaution, I'd check the pH of the collophony resin. Many are acidic and that could cause things to heat up (literally) with a chlorate composition. If the pine rosin isn't going to work, try red gum or shellac as a substitute and compare them. Another option might be to add a small percentage of copper (II) carbonate to neutralize any acid content in the collophony, but it might possibly change the color or some other characteristics of the composition (test, test, test...).

 

Don't get me wrong, I love pine rosin (Vinsol, collophony), but safety first... Always!

 

WSM

[warthog]

I thought it odd that the formula used Perchlorate and Paris Green. That is a mix of old and new and sort of hits me as something wrong so I was already going to simply start by replacing the KCLO₄ with KCLO₃ and seeing how well it worked and tuning it from there. It is eerie how you knew that WSM.

 

I have Colophonium. I may give the other formula a try too as a lance, it looks good as a star. I guess I never thought to try it as a lance so what the heck. Testing though is what I live for...

So far I have a good red, green and reasonable yellow lance. As I am able, I work on other colors to get them all burning at about the same rate. Maybe one day I will get myself able to make a nice set piece for someone other than myself and when/if that happens, I will be ready for whatever colors they ask of me.

Edited January 16, 2012 by warthog

[Mumbles]

If you have good reds and greens, assuming they're compatible, you can mix the formulas to produce every color of the rainbow between the two. It's possible to make very nice yellows and oranges. I've picked this up from Lloyd S. I have a new found love for yellow and orange now that I'm not limited to only the calcium and sodium emission lines.

[WSM]

If you have good reds and greens, assuming they're compatible, you can mix the formulas to produce every color of the rainbow between the two. It's possible to make very nice yellows and oranges. I've picked this up from Lloyd S. I have a new found love for yellow and orange now that I'm not limited to only the calcium and sodium emission lines.

 

True, plus orange and green look good together in the sky (not unlike green and purple ). It's wonderful to have compatible red and green compositions; add blue and the world is yours.

 

WSM

[WSM]

I thought it odd that the formula used Perchlorate and Paris Green. That is a mix of old and new and sort of hits me as something wrong so I was already going to simply start by replacing the KCLO₄ with KCLO₃ and seeing how well it worked and tuning it from there. It is eerie how you knew that WSM.

I have Colophonium. I may give the other formula a try too as a lance, it looks good as a star. I guess I never thought to try it as a lance so what the heck. Testing though is what I live for...

So far I have a good red, green and reasonable yellow lance. As I am able, I work on other colors to get them all burning at about the same rate. Maybe one day I will get myself able to make a nice set piece for someone other than myself and when/if that happens, I will be ready for whatever colors they ask of me.

 

Not much of a mystery when you realize my first good blue stars were chlorate, Paris green and a few other things. That formula just looked like someone decided chlorate was too dangerous and arbitrarily changed it to perchlorate instead.

 

There are ways to slow a composition (for lances) without loosing brilliant colors, try adding hexamine (if compatible with the other ingredients) and see if that works.

 

WSM

[warthog]

Hexamine is a good idea. Thanks. Would it be added to or would I also be needing to subtract something else? I only ask as most lance comps have an abundance of oxygen emitters in them so that the tube is easily consumed, it should be consider as fuel in the comp actually.

 

My yellow isn't great really, it is reasonable. I am still looking and working on the great one. I have a great red and green so far and a decent/reasonable yellow. I am open to suggestions for a good yellow for sure. Once aI can get the basic colors worked out I would hope all it takes is a bit of mixing to get other colors to come along. At least this has worked for me with star comps so I would think it should also work for other areas of light emission compostions as well.

 

I guess I am not sure how to make all the colors from just red and green though. I have been offline for more than a month and Lloyd was just getting into the yellow discussion as m y ADSL failed. So I suppose it is time to go back and do some reading...

[Mumbles]

He's talked about it several times over the last few years. The yellow I like is made by mixing 55 parts green with 35 parts red (no, it does not add to 100). This is easiest with a formula like ruby red and emerald green where the only difference is the use of barium or strontium nitrate. Thus, you just need to use a 55:35 ratio of Ba to Sr.

[WSM]

He's talked about it several times over the last few years. The yellow I like is made by mixing 55 parts green with 35 parts red (no, it does not add to 100). This is easiest with a formula like ruby red and emerald green where the only difference is the use of barium or strontium nitrate. Thus, you just need to use a 55:35 ratio of Ba to Sr.

 

Also a good starting point for orange is 80% red plus 20% green, and fine tune it from there .

 

WSM

[WSM]

Hexamine is a good idea. Thanks. Would it be added to or would I also be needing to subtract something else? I only ask as most lance comps have an abundance of oxygen emitters in them so that the tube is easily consumed, it should be consider as fuel in the comp actually.

My yellow isn't great really, it is reasonable. I am still looking and working on the great one. I have a great red and green so far and a decent/reasonable yellow. I am open to suggestions for a good yellow for sure. Once aI can get the basic colors worked out I would hope all it takes is a bit of mixing to get other colors to come along. At least this has worked for me with star comps so I would think it should also work for other areas of light emission compostions as well.

I guess I am not sure how to make all the colors from just red and green though. I have been offline for more than a month and Lloyd was just getting into the yellow discussion as m y ADSL failed. So I suppose it is time to go back and do some reading...

 

Try just adding a few percent and see how it goes (it's easy to add more if needed).

 

WSM

Edited January 17, 2012 by WSM

[Mumbles]

Some people are uneasy adding hexamine to chlorate oxidized compositions. I've never really looked into it much, but the fear is that the hexamine will hydrolyze to ammonia or other amines and formaldehyde (which it can do), and potentially form unstable ammonium chlorate species. Things like stearin are more traditionally used for this purpose with chlorates.

[warthog]

Thanks to both of you again! I have stearine as well so perhaps for the sake of safety, I will go with that instead.

 

As for speaking of things over the years, I am but a year into the hobby! Wish I had known I could do this a while ago as I would surely be an old timer by now. Sadly I was more into firearms and never even thought that a person might be allowed to make such a things as their own fireworks back then. I should have guessed though when I started loading my own ammunition some 35 years ago that if I could do that, I could make a smoke bomb legally as well. (just an example, from there I would have gone on to making everything else I could think of as far as fireworking goes) Now that I know though I haven't wasted any time learning and doing everything I can think of doing though. I have plenty of time on my hands, what I lack is a legal place to do this, I have to go put t a buddy's place. He is licensed and lets me work there and also stores my finished stuff in his magazine as his for me though I do not have free access to the work area nor the magazine, which is as it should be after all. I believe I will soon have work time free access to the working area so that will be nice and you can believe I will go crazy experimenting and seeing what all I have been thinking will work will actually work.

 

In any case, I will be working on the set piece soon and should have this stuff worked out and my results reported back to all forthwith.

[warthog]

Well, I was finally able to mix up a small, 50 gram batch of this formula. Wow, the color sucked! It was more like one of those blue-white parking lot lights than a nice blue and I think the video below caught that quite well. While I am please with getting my hands on some Copal Gum, it is also called for in a few other formulae I am wanting to try out, this particular lance formula needs work badly. The reason I used three lances was twofold really, one was to get an idea of spacing though I did this closer than the set piece would be viewed at approximately 25 feet and two to test the three types of tube I had around. I rolled up a few of them with the 30# Kraft as shown in the slideshow in the OP plus I had two different types of commercial lance tube from two different buy outs of a couple of nearby pyros who had decided to stop making set pieces. They now make set pieces with LED's instead as it is easier and doesn't smoke and can be seen well from a long way off. Personally, I guess I still want to make things the way they made them prior to having such choices. Those are certainly what I remember from my youth watching the wonderful set pieces in the stadia for the Independence Day shows and such and I just want to eventually make something grand like those even if it is just once so I can say I did so. Here is a 20 second video of the the three lances burning. Mind you these were done in my back yard rather than out at the work site. Shame on me but they are just lances and I don't think any harm was done since it is cold here and folks were indoors, away from all that harmful smoke.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QE2DHRzJ-w

 

far left was in the hand rolled tube and they were 4 inches apart

Edited January 25, 2012 by warthog

[WSM]

Well, I was finally able to mix up a small, 50 gram batch of this formula. Wow, the color sucked! It was more like one of those blue-white parking lot lights than a nice blue and I think the video below caught that quite well. While I am please with getting my hands on some Copal Gum, it is also called for in a few other formulae I am wanting to try out, this particular lance formula needs work badly. The reason I used three lances was twofold really, one was to get an idea of spacing though I did this closer than the set piece would be viewed at approximately 25 feet and two to test the three types of tube I had around. I rolled up a few of them with the 30# Kraft as shown in the slideshow in the OP plus I had two different types of commercial lance tube from two different buy outs of a couple of nearby pyros who had decided to stop making set pieces. They now make set pieces with LED's instead as it is easier and doesn't smoke and can be seen well from a long way off. Personally, I guess I still want to make things the way they made them prior to having such choices. Those are certainly what I remember from my youth watching the wonderful set pieces in the stadia for the Independence Day shows and such and I just want to eventually make something grand like those even if it is just once so I can say I did so. Here is a 20 second video of the the three lances burning. Mind you these were done in my back yard rather than out at the work site. Shame on me but they are just lances and I don't think any harm was done since it is cold here and folks were indoors, away from all that harmful smoke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QE2DHRzJ-w

far left was in the hand rolled tube and they were 4 inches apart

 

For a lance try Ellern's Formula 79 "Ashless Blue Flare" and see what you think:

 

74 ammonium perchlorate

11 copper powder

11 stearic acid

04 paraffin

 

Let us know how it turns out.

 

WSM

[warthog]

I have that one in my great book of formulae (LOL) but I am not able to produce copper powder fine enough to use for something like this on my own. Otherwise I have the rest of it to make this one if I can manage the Copper Dust/Powder. I have cut up a bunch of conduits with hacksaws as well and most of the tailings are fairly coarse. Any ideas on how to get this stuff?

 

another one is copper chloride, I can find the stuff now and then but at $5/oz I am not really inclined to make any formula with it in it. It is cost prohibitive IMO unless I am just looking in the wrong places...

Edited January 26, 2012 by warthog

[WSM]

For a lance try Ellern's Formula 79 "Ashless Blue Flare" and see what you think:

74 ammonium perchlorate

11 copper powder

11 stearic acid

04 paraffin

Let us know how it turns out.

WSM

 

Another blue to try is:

 

64 potassium perchlorate

13 copper carbonate (but you might like copper oxide better)

14 parlon or saran

09 red gum

 

If it needs slowing, adding a couple percent of hexamine and see how that works. I believe this blue is a bit lighter than the "Ashless Blue Flare" Ellern quotes.

 

WSM

[WSM]

I have that one in my great book of formulae (LOL) but I am not able to produce copper powder fine enough to use for something like this on my own. Otherwise I have the rest of it to make this one if I can manage the Copper Dust/Powder. I have cut up a bunch of conduits with hacksaws as well and most of the tailings are fairly coarse. Any ideas on how to get this stuff?

 

I used to get super fine copper powder from Octavio of ODA Enterprizes. It was a by-product of the circuit board business he owned.

[/url]http://www.oda-ent.com/About%20us.html

 

WSM

Edited January 26, 2012 by WSM

[warthog]

Thanks, when my crappy DSL will allow me to get to that page, I will see what I can do about the copper powder. For now it seems it's unable to get there from here.

 

It would be great to get ahold of some of the copper powder as I have a blue star formula that calls for it as well.

[warthog]

Well, will the wonders of EBay never cease? Copper Powder inbound, -325 Mesh, 1 pound for a paltry $14.00 plus shipping to $19 so I guess that is decent enough for now.