NightHawkInLight Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I suggest urea. It works by killing any nitrogen oxides present, and acting as a buffer to kill any that are formed subsequently. It reacts with both Nitric oxide, and nitrogen dioxide to form nitrogen, water, and carbon dioxide. Back in the day when this sort of chemistry was first being developed on the amateur scale and applicability, urea washings were the new thing I really brought to the table. It's amazing how much cleaner the NC gets, and how much longer it lasts. For what it's worth, on a larger scale, your washing methods are rather inadequate. It's amazing how much more effort you need to put into cleaning up 50g of NC vs. 5g. It of course depends on the purity required, and storage stability. For what you're using it for, those are really not issues. Thanks for the explanation, that clears things up. As you said, my washing methods may not be suited to making a product that will stand the test of time. I use the stuff pretty much as soon as it's dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean411 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 NHIL, I saw your tutorial on YouTube for making NC and some point will have to as it appears thathobby c is no longer selling it. ?wonder why he no longer offers it I emailed him on it but never heard anything.I'm currently still set with enough to last quite awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 NHIL, I saw your tutorial on YouTube for making NC and some point will have to as it appears thathobby c is no longer selling it. ?wonder why he no longer offers it I emailed him on it but never heard anything.I'm currently still set with enough to last quite awhile. If you're just wanting to use it for general fireworks purposes such as a binder, just use single base smokeless powder. It's more of a pain to make yourself than it's worth unless you really want it in the cotton form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 thanks for the video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allrocketspsl Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'll have this batch used up within a week. I just wash the NC in tap water a few times then a wash in hot sodium bicarb solution. After rinsing a few times with water first the bicarb usually doesn't bubble much. One final rinse to get that all out and I call it good. There's some salt contaminants left over from the tap water which makes the NC burn bright yellow. I don't know why you would want a plasticizer in NC, it's plastic enough on its own. It can be cast or pressed into any shape you desire, and can be wound into string or rope just like the cotton it's made from. so i made a batch of 10 percent gun cotton to 100 grams alcahol,it isnt disolved yet one day?Do i need to sevie to get what i need.When star comps say use 10 percent nc what do they mean.When i make the homemade kind it is easy acetone to disolve.Can i use acetone with gun cotton to make it a gel? All Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah you need to use acetone, alcohol will not dissolve NC. I'm not sure what they mean by 10% NC however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Well, only low nitration nitrocellulose will dissolve in alcohol. It's one of the ways to tell how well you did with the nitration and washing and stuff. If it gets a little gummy with alcohol you need to do a longer/better nitration. It can also break down and start to get gummy, which is where the washing part comes in. You'll need acetone or MEK or other real solvents to dissolve the NC. This said, while you can't dissolve nitrocellulose directly in alcohol, you can dilute solutions of it with alcohol. If you look at the MSDS for lacquer thinner, you will sometimes find a sizeable alcohol content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starseeker Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Yeah you need to use acetone, alcohol will not dissolve NC. I'm not sure what they mean by 10% NC however. It is 10% N.C in solution,Ie,10g N.C,in 100g of acetone.I have some 20% which i just thin by 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichC Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 As a newbie, I've been wondering if the NC lacquer being talked about is the same that can be bought (in liquid form) from woodworking specialty shops? Is there any reason that this can't be used in formulas? I've assumed that compounds which call for taking about 10% NC, is talking about a certain dilution of NC in acetone used to bind and provide fuels. Am I off base? Thanks for any responses. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Tom Schroeder over at Passfire is the guy that formulates and sells millions of pounds of NCL each year and has said that the furniture grade NCL is not the same stuff. I suggest that you try it and see if it works for your needs. If not, buy a pound of NC from Foxfire and make your own 10% solution. A pound of NC will make gallons of solution. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichC Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks a lot, Dag. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitrato Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) I've heard many people speak of the urea nitrate stabilization process and read about it in some old texts regarding making colored flash paper. I'm not sure I understand what it does to stabilize the NC. I've had plenty of success with nothing more than sodium bicarb. I've even neutralized with clear ammonia on several occasions, which supposedly can damage the NC but I've had no trouble. Here's some NC made with my usual process: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbt057a8Zzc I typically react the cotton under sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate, which is how the above batch was made. For the one that I have going now I decided to try out ammonium nitrate instead. While everyone has been trying to tell me to do that for years, I never had trouble with potassium nitrate and so this is the first time for me. So far it does look to be superior in that there are no solid compounds that crystallize out of solution and block the flow of acids through the cotton. We'll see how the final result turns out. Nice video. Ive made some batches of it too and when I need some to make my own lacquer I just make more (what is very convenient since as pyro hobby is unfamiliar in my country there are very few suppliers of pyro materials, therefore the real way of getting it is making your own material, and is cheaper. BTW, making your own is half the fun ). As many others, I usually use pharmacy grade cotton wads, since it is treated to remove oils and fats, bleached and to be more hydrophilic (fibers more exposed), that is the best kind to use since the mixed acids will penetrate it very readily. As nitrating mix I use KNO3 method too. I have NH4NO3 purified from garden fertilizer, but I choose to not use it in my nitrating mixes since it certainly have a small amounts of chlorides that I didnt managed to remove, and that is no good as ammonium nitrate is a bit different in sulfuric than other nitrates, as chlorides can promote decomposition (N2O, etc). The best thing about NH4NO3 is where you need cold nitrating baths, since ammonium bisulfate is much less prone to ppt out, so the mix wont turn viscous, but this mix is controvertial when higher temps nitrating are needed. Sodium nitrate is another good option but have to be dried first. I wash it with tap water several times, then a wash with HOT tap water, then with dilute NaHCO3 solution in tap water for some hours, then water again, NaHCO3 and some final washings with demineralized water, to remove chlorides,etc from tap water. The next thing I do is put demineralized water and some urea in a clean blender and put the NC (not great amount) and turn on for at least five mins. This procedure will cut the NC fibers and expose it better to urea solution that will remove last traces of acids and NOx, as Mumbles and others have said.. Then I filter and let it dry.. This will produce a somewhat fluffly material, better to dissolve in acetone than NC wads. About ammonia washings, yeah, a lot of people report that is not beneficial in neutralizing steps for NC. The storage can be made with absolute ethyl alcohol (or other alcohols), specially high high nitrogen content stuff. Edited March 4, 2012 by Nitrato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Tom Schroeder over at Passfire is the guy that formulates and sells millions of pounds of NCL each year and has said that the furniture grade NCL is not the same stuff. I suggest that you try it and see if it works for your needs. If not, buy a pound of NC from Foxfire and make your own 10% solution. A pound of NC will make gallons of solution. -dag I haven't tested commercial NC-lacquers, but as far as I've understood, the one called Zapon (it's originally an American brand, by the way) is pure. Other varieties contain shit that doesn't belong in pyro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I haven't tested commercial NC-lacquers, but as far as I've understood, the one called Zapon (it's originally an American brand, by the way) is pure. Other varieties contain shit that doesn't belong in pyro. Bad news, Zapon is filled with things other than nitrocellulose.... LINK -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allrocketspsl Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Bad news, Zapon is filled with things other than nitrocellulose.... LINK -dag my gun cotton doesnt mix with alcahol,why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) my gun cotton doesnt mix with alcahol,why? Alcohol is not used to dilute NC, Acetone is used for that, alcohol is just used to store the NC for long periods of time so it doesn't degrade. To make NCL, pour the NC with alcohol on to a piece of kraft and let it dry out then weigh the NC, if you have 10oz of NC, add 90oz of Acetone for a 10% solution. -dag Edited March 4, 2012 by dagabu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allrocketspsl Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Alcohol is not used to dilute NC, Acetone is used for that, alcohol is just used to store the NC for long periods of time so it doesn't degrade. To make NCL, pour the NC with alcohol on to a piece of kraft and let it dry out then weigh the NC, if you have 10oz of NC, add 90oz of Acetone for a 10% solution. -dag da got it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan999ification Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 some comps ive seen call for a certain strength solution, and then some that call for 10% by weight to be added, which you can only really do if you know the strength, knowing the amount of nc in your dragons eggs can be helpful for consistant future batches. dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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