State Legality

[pyropulsion]

I am in NY State.

 

I began with basic model rocketry, using both packed and cast formulas of KNO3/Sugar compositions.

I have been reading as much as I can in an attempt to ensure I am following local laws. I have checked out the ATF's site, and found a rocketry exemption in Section 555.141 that states that I can use low power propellant grains less than 62.5 grams, and mentions some regulations regarding 50 lbs of BP.

I was wondering how this translates to other forms of sensitive materials.

 

My main reason for looking into this is because I am an avid firearms shooter, and I have been researching into making a generic form of Tannerite for personal use.

All the sites I have read so far state that Tannerite is legal, so I figured that by following proper procedure, and transporting separated materials safely, and then mixing onsite, I should be fine.

 

I spoke with a sergeant from our local bombsquad, but he seemed to take it to the extreme and said nothing was legal in NY State, so it did not appear he was aware of the 555.141 exemption, or perhaps he was just fulfilling his duty felt responsibility of keeping an inquisitive person safe.

 

Can anyone direct me to a reputable repository of legal requirements and restrictions?

 

To be more direct, I was looking for ways to test AN/AL mixtures without a firearm so, I considered using CuO/AL to detonate, but after reading safety sheets, I see it is a rather sensitive composition. As always, I would mix safely via paper rolling or plastic spoon, but I really want to get a better understanding of everything before I do something stupid. You only get ONE chance with a mistake.

 

I have more questions, but I think this is long enough. thanks.

[NightHawkInLight]

I can't speak for your local laws, but you are good to go federally. So long as you're not within 100 miles or so of a nuclear power plant or something. It's likely you are ok locally as well if you're well outside of any cities. Whether or not the cop that shows up on your shoot day knows it or not is another matter. If you do something that looks illegal to the average person (such as using explosives on private property) even if it's legal there's no guarantee that you won't be hauled off to lockup for the night, or the cops might just make life rough for you for a few days. If anything got taken to court you would be on the winning side federally.

 

There is no safer way to initiate Tannerite type explosives than with a rifle. I don't know why you would want to do something else. Also something you should know before getting into this, such targets may not seem much louder than a gunshot in person, but they maintain their volume for much longer distances. 1lb targets will easily be heard from 5 to ten miles and are obviously not a gunshot when heard from that distance. You will very likely have people calling the police, so be sure you are legal before that point, and have the law in print to prove it.

[pyropulsion]

I can't speak for your local laws, but you are good to go federally. So long as you're not within 100 miles or so of a nuclear power plant or something. It's likely you are ok locally as well if you're well outside of any cities. Whether or not the cop that shows up on your shoot day knows it or not is another matter. If you do something that looks illegal to the average person (such as using explosives on private property) even if it's legal there's no guarantee that you won't be hauled off to lockup for the night, or the cops might just make life rough for you for a few days. If anything got taken to court you would be on the winning side federally.

 

There is no safer way to initiate Tannerite type explosives than with a rifle. I don't know why you would want to do something else. Also something you should know before getting into this, such targets may not seem much louder than a gunshot in person, but they maintain their volume for much longer distances. 1lb targets will easily be heard from 5 to ten miles and are obviously not a gunshot when heard from that distance. You will very likely have people calling the police, so be sure you are legal before that point, and have the law in print to prove it.

 

Very good reply. Thank you for the information. I keep a small printout on hand of that ATF exemption that I mentioned.

 

True about igniting tannerite with a rifle. I had better not be stupid. I did read that 5% Antimony Trisulphate Pyro Dark increases the sensitivity of AN/AL mixtures so that a pistol can set them off, but I am not sure how safe it is to handle...even though the "guy on youtube" tells me it is ok (if you know what I mean).

 

Thanks again

[Richtee]

Very good reply. Thank you for the information. I keep a small printout on hand of that ATF exemption that I mentioned.

 

True about igniting tannerite with a rifle. I had better not be stupid. I did read that 5% Antimony Trisulphate Pyro Dark increases the sensitivity of AN/AL mixtures so that a pistol can set them off, but I am not sure how safe it is to handle...even though the "guy on youtube" tells me it is ok (if you know what I mean).

 

Thanks again

I can tell you a pellet gun will set the AT/DarkAL off. And so will packaging it too tight for a target. Just sayin'.

[dagabu]

Sorry to say but there are laws on the books in New York state that negate 555.141 exemption.

 

Straight from the New York State code:

 

CONSUMER FIREWORKS

Specifically permitted

None

 

Specifically prohibited

Firecrackers, torpedoes, skyrockets, roman

candles, bombs, and sparklers.

 

Making motors for rockets of any kind are prohibited.

 

Sorry about the bad news,

 

-dag

[pyropulsion]

Sorry to say but there are laws on the books in New York state that negate 555.141 exemption.

 

Straight from the New York State code:

 

CONSUMER FIREWORKS

Specifically permitted

None

 

Specifically prohibited

Firecrackers, torpedoes, skyrockets, roman

candles, bombs, and sparklers.

 

Making motors for rockets of any kind are prohibited.

 

Sorry about the bad news,

 

-dag

 

 

 

 

I don't understand how an exemption is overwritten. I thought an exemption took precedence. Did it specifically say "Making motors for rockets of any kind are prohibited."? I can stay away from more powerful things, but we have rocketry clubs out here that hold launch days, etc, and as far as I was informed, only engines greater than E require a permit.

Wow, now I am really confused.

[NightHawkInLight]

I don't understand how an exemption is overwritten. I thought an exemption took precedence. Did it specifically say "Making motors for rockets of any kind are prohibited."? I can stay away from more powerful things, but we have rocketry clubs out here that hold launch days, etc, and as far as I was informed, only engines greater than E require a permit.

Wow, now I am really confused.

 

There is a difference between model rocketry and fireworks rockets. What makes them different in legal terms I am unsure of.

 

The harshest law is always the one that wins out. For example, federally there are many types of fireworks that are legal without license or permit. Here in Michigan however, state law says I cannot use anything that leaves the ground or explodes without permit. If I were to receive a ticket for a violation of state law I could not dispute it just because those things may be legal in other places outside my state.

Edited May 4, 2011 by NightHawkInLight

[pyropulsion]

Thank you for the replies guys. BTW, i wonder if the difference between hobby rockets and skyrockets are the type of gas produced. I think KNO3/Sugar and AP/AL mixtures produce water vapor, no?

I don't have experience with skyrockets so maybe I am way off.

Edited May 4, 2011 by pyropulsion

[dagabu]

I know that you dont want to accept this, its normal to fight the truth when it is potentially going to disagree with what you want to do but it is true as NHIL has said, no pyro in NYS.

 

For instance, the Feds say that I can have up to 50# of black powder in original cans. My city regulations prohibit me to 20# but over 5# have to be kept in a magazine. The city wins.

 

You must know by now that New York and California have very restrictive pyro laws and you must be licensed to sneeze on a piece of visco! That may be an exaggeration, but not by much.

 

Your only options are to get a license (good luck on that one) or join a club that is licensed. Rockets of every kind are limited in YNS and you may want to ask about ESTES rockets as well, the last work on state law regulates their use too.

 

-dag

[Bilbobaker]

I've been trying to find similar information about the state laws for building rocket motors and Tannerite clones here in Oregon too... anyone know them or have a link?

Thanks,

This is a subject of great interest too me. Most good fireworks are licence/permit only here.

I just had a very unpleasant visit from the local police department about it.

[pyropulsion]

I know that you dont want to accept this, its normal to fight the truth when it is potentially going to disagree with what you want to do but it is true as NHIL has said, no pyro in NYS.

-dag

 

sadly, you are right.

[dagabu]

I've been trying to find similar information about the state laws for building rocket motors and Tannerite clones here in Oregon too... anyone know them or have a link?

Thanks,

This is a subject of great interest too me. Most good fireworks are licence/permit only here.

I just had a very unpleasant visit from the local police department about it.

 

Pyro-U has all the states listed on their site, the laws pertain to display and non display fireworks.

 

In bold so everyone understands the federal law:

 

ANY PYRO YOU MAKE IS A DISPLAY FIREWORK, 1.3G!

 

Email the ATF with your questions, they love to talk and will give you their "understanding" of your state laws.

 

-dag

[oldguy]

http://www.fireworks.com/fireworks_laws/laws_newyork.asp

 

LINK............. above .....gives a State by State run-down on fireworks laws in general for each state & who to contact with questions, or about permitting.

[dagabu]

Thats really out of date Oldguy, insurance is now 1,000,000 according to NYS' site.

 

-dag

[oldguy]

Thats really out of date Oldguy, insurance is now 1,000,000 according to NYS' site.

 

-dag

 

I didn’t say it was “written in stone”, and don’t doubt its out of date for insurance amounts.

 

But it gives general outlines, reference to each state statutes & who to contact in each State.

 

I only posted it to provide starting point info to anyone curious about their State laws.

 

 

[dagabu]

Direct from Oregon.

 

LINK

 

MANUFACTURING OF FIREWORKS

The manufacture or assembly of fireworks without a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) permit is illegal. Manufacturers must also be in compliance with National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 1124 codes.

BATFE P 5400.7 (09/00) establishes Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives regulations for permits to manufacture, assemble and store fireworks.

NOTE: Immediately notify the BATFE in Portland at

(503) 331-7830 and the OSFM at (503) 934-8264, of any unpermitted fireworks manufacturing operations.

Edited May 5, 2011 by dagabu

[Peret]

Oregon has (had?) a woman Fire Marshal. Such things shouldn't be allowed. Too bad the Fire Marshal is a political appointment and not an elected office. Once you get a zealot in there, there's very little can be done to get them out or undo the damage. New York, however, elected the notorious firework hater Rudy Giuliani. God help this hobby if the bastard ever gets elected President.

[Bilbobaker]

I know that you dont want to accept this, its normal to fight the truth when it is potentially going to disagree with what you want to do but it is true as NHIL has said, no pyro in NYS.

 

For instance, the Feds say that I can have up to 50# of black powder in original cans. My city regulations prohibit me to 20# but over 5# have to be kept in a magazine. The city wins.

 

You must know by now that New York and California have very restrictive pyro laws and you must be licensed to sneeze on a piece of visco! That may be an exaggeration, but not by much.

 

Your only options are to get a license (good luck on that one) or join a club that is licensed. Rockets of every kind are limited in YNS and you may want to ask about ESTES rockets as well, the last work on state law regulates their use too.

 

-dag

Are you allowed to make your own black powder and keep it in well marked containers on a federal or state level?

I personally like the idea of Rcandy for model rockets, seems much cleaner and more easily compacted into a single grain.

I don't know if it is legal to do in Oregon yet so I haven't made one.

This is a great resource for such things. James Yawn rocketry

 

 

Edited May 6, 2011 by Bilbobaker

[Mumbles]

Nope, manufactured BP is regulated the same way as any other home made pyrotechnic article, and must be stored in a magazine.

[Bilbobaker]

Nope, manufactured BP is regulated the same way as any other home made pyrotechnic article, and must be stored in a magazine.

 

Thanks.

Guess I'll have to be looking into getting permits, wonder how long the process is and how expensive.

 

I found a few folks locally who are so licensed and was invited to come and watch their displays, that was nice.

Bill

[Skycastlefish]

There is a difference between model rocketry and fireworks rockets. What makes them different in legal terms I am unsure of.

 

The harshest law is always the one that wins out. For example, federally there are many types of fireworks that are legal without license or permit. Here in Michigan however, state law says I cannot use anything that leaves the ground or explodes without permit. If I were to receive a ticket for a violation of state law I could not dispute it just because those things may be legal in other places outside my state.

 

Theoretically, state law can grant you more freedom than federal law, but cannot remove federally protected freedoms. An excellent example is this is the quarreling that goes on between the federal government and California over medical marijuana. California has constitutional permission to make federal laws null and void. However, if the federal government declares something legal, the state can not prohibit it. In other words, if the federal government says you can't buy sugar on sunday's, then your state can over ride that law and sell sugar on Sundays. But, if the federal government says "sugar can be sold everyday of the week" in its law, then your state cannot outlaw selling sugar on Sunday's. However, the key word is "theoretically." In truth, unfortunately, there's an ugly power struggle between the the local and the federal. Like Nighthawk said, usually the courts just pick the largest charge to ensure that nobody gets away with anything. Heaven forbid