smokebombs

[nater]

ah, i see. that's good to know. what compound is formed that is toxic?

 

I believe it forms Sulfur Dioxide which is a respiratory irritant. It may be something worse, I'm not much of a chemist. Whatever it is, it stinks - far, far worse than typical BP smoke. The only thing it might be useful for is clearing out bugs. But there isn't much point in using it as a fogger when you don't want to be around it either. 2 3/4 x 2.5 inch smoke bombs on a slightly breezy day made me cough and my eyes burn.

Edited August 29, 2011 by nater

[Mumbles]

Sulfur dioxide, sulfur trioxide, potassium sulfide, etc. The potassium sulfide can hydrolyze into hydrogen sulfide. This is very obvious if you leave a recently fired mortar outdoors overnight. None of them are very good for you and will do a number on your lungs and other mucous membranes if you get exposed to enough. These types of mixes are quite effective at ridding your lawn of gophers and other tunneling creatures I've heard though.

[californiapyro]

got it. thanks for that, I was wondering about the safety of said mix. yes ive cleared out many a gopher with this mix

 

 

[oldmanbeefjerky]

ill look into those mumbles thanks. but befor ei do that i am going to conduct a little investigation to see if dextrin (or other forms of dextrin) burn cooler than sucrose, as i have heard dextrin can be a substitute, and i can certainly get many forms of dextrin for a significantly lower price than lactose. This will be a practical investigation, ill get samples and burn them to see which one burns the least amount of dye.

[Parared]

Hello forum,

 

I also have an interesting dye address!

 

Does anyone know the provider?

 

http://www.imperialcolours.co.uk/Solvent-Dyes.asp

 

 

Regards

 

Parared from Germany

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Sorry no.

 

 

A friend of mine just told me his friends grandma gave him a jar of blue pottery pigment, which he then (silly him) used in a KNO3:Sugar:Charcoal 15:5:1 ratio, adding 1/3rd volume of blue pigment, which he mixed into the smoke mix while it was soft coming of the stove.

The smoke bomb when burnt, apparently made smoke almost just as blue as the pigment which was deep blue.

He is going to send me some soon so i can try it out myself, and also he is finding out exactly what the dye is. all i know right now is that it is the consistency of regular smoke dye, super fine and waxy like solvent blue.

Has anyone heard of such dye before? one that can survive potassium nitrate? bicarb soda was used and it was burnt in a metal canister

Edited September 6, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[Mumbles]

Most pottery pigments I've encountered are inorganic chemicals, not organic. This could be how it worked out. They are much more resistant to heat. Synthetic ultramarine blue is where I would start experimenting with. Other things like Phthalocyanine blue have been used too previously with success.

 

If it turns out to be something relatively commonly available, it could be a very cool new thing to look into.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

I hope so,

There are allot of people out there who either cant get or dont know how to get chlorate for the purpose of colored smoke bombs , but can get nitrate, as is the situation for allot of people, especially in australia.

I just found out that he was able to melt some of the dye with a jet lighter, and aside from being able to withstand nitrate, seems to have the exact same characteristics as my own solvent blue dye. Also there is a chance it might not be a pottery pigment at all since ive just found out, he has no idea if it is a pottery pigment, only that his friends grandma is a pottery enthusiast and may have used it. But still, where he lives there is only one pottery supplier and they deal in bulk, which could mean cheap dye since his friends grandma just "gave" him a little over 1kg just because he asked, which means the grandma is either really generous, really rich or doesnt value it much because it is readily avaliable cheaply and in large amounts!

 

Anyway, ill keep looking into this and hopefully i strike gold

Edited September 6, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[dave321]

I do believe lactose does burn cooler, yes.

 

As far as books, I'd suggest Shimizu's FAST, and Hardt's Pyrotechnics. Ellern may also have some valuable information.

 

The nitrate/sulfur smoke likely produces clouds of noxious, corrosive, toxic gas/vapor even without the realgar. Other than that it should be safe.

 

i think that is incorrect.

 

sucrose burns cooler than lactose, thats why it was chosen in a particular low toxicity white smoke formulation.

unfortunately i cant find the reference.........amongst my patent printouts somewhere

 

dave

[dagabu]

i think that is incorrect.

 

sucrose burns cooler than lactose, thats why it was chosen in a particular low toxicity white smoke formulation.

unfortunately i cant find the reference.........amongst my patent printouts somewhere

 

dave

 

Good to know... But why then does sucrose lead to burned out colors and lactose does not?

 

-dag

[WSM]

Good to know... But why then does sucrose lead to burned out colors and lactose does not?

-dag

 

I've always had an easier time using lactose rather than sucrose for smoke mixes. I believe lactose burns cooler with chlorate. I suggest more sodium bicarbonate if your smoke mix burns too hot. Even a chlorate/sulfur mix (which I don't recommend) can be made to work if enough bicarbonate is added to keep it from flaring (and burning the dye).

 

If you are using chlorate and sucrose for your smoke dye vaporizer, and it burns too hot; try adding more bicarbonate till it cools things down to where it performs right. Experimentation is the key.

 

WSM

[dave321]

I've always had an easier time using lactose rather than sucrose for smoke mixes. I believe lactose burns cooler with chlorate. I suggest more sodium bicarbonate if your smoke mix burns too hot. Even a chlorate/sulfur mix (which I don't recommend) can be made to work if enough bicarbonate is added to keep it from flaring (and burning the dye).

 

If you are using chlorate and sucrose for your smoke dye vaporizer, and it burns too hot; try adding more bicarbonate till it cools things down to where it performs right. Experimentation is the key.

 

WSM

 

 

its not that important to me but i have to say based on the evidence in US Patent 4032374, by douda et al,

 

the combustion temperature of sucrose + chlorate is ~140C

combustion temperature of lactose + chlorate is ~ 190C

 

if i have misinterpreted the above............then i stand corrected.

 

i do believe lactose chlorate is less sensitive to impact and friction than sucrose chlorate

 

not sure what ratios the above data was measured on, but the info may be useful to someone

 

because of this , all the smokes i make use sucrose to try to help preserve the dye during sublimation, rather than lactose (which i admit i used to use routinely)

 

i agree with you re the bicarbonate.

 

dave

Edited September 6, 2011 by dave321

[Mumbles]

That data as presented looks fairly convincing assuming it's correct. The author is certainly reliable, but patent data has a history of being not as stringently controlled. I honestly don't know where else I'd look to for combustion data though. If anyone has Shidlovskiiy, it should present the data on impact sensitivity. It may also have burning temperatures. Lactose with chlorate from what I remember is surprisingly sensitive to impact actually. I don't remember anything regarding sucrose. Given somewhat similar the melting points, I would expect them to be on the same magnitude at least.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Lactose is used instead of sucrose most of the time because A. it is not hygroscopic, sucrose is And B. lactose experiences pyrolysis much differently to sucrose, and does not dehydrogenate as quickly as sucrose, meaning that sucrose will leave behind more unburnt carbon than lactose will.

 

Its difficult to explain, but essentially, sucrose in the end will not release as much carbon in the form of volatile hydrocarbon gas as will lactose. and we all know more carbon means more heat and so less carbon means less heat.

This also means that lactose burns much more efficiently at lower tempuratures than sucrose will.

Excessive carbon along with chlorate however can make the smoke mixture burn at a much higher temperature if more or less sucrose is added than needed.

[dave321]

Lactose is used instead of sucrose most of the time because A. it is not hygroscopic, sucrose is And B. lactose experiences pyrolysis much differently to sucrose, and does not dehydrogenate as quickly as sucrose, meaning that sucrose will leave behind more unburnt carbon than lactose will.

 

Its difficult to explain, but essentially, sucrose in the end will not release as much carbon in the form of volatile hydrocarbon gas as will lactose. and we all know more carbon means more heat and so less carbon means less heat.

This also means that lactose burns much more efficiently at lower tempuratures than sucrose will.

Excessive carbon along with chlorate however can make the smoke mixture burn at a much higher temperature if more or less sucrose is added than needed.

 

always willing to listen to other information.

 

just illustrates how more info helps one to learn .............maybe i should go back to using lactose

 

dave

[allrocketspsl]

completely different topic here: For a great, long-lasting white smoke i normally do a 50:50 mix of sulfur/nitrate, then press with a nozzle on standard endburner tooling. can anyone forsee problems (safety or otherwise) with this method?

 

the composition is lancaster

48 k-nit

48 sulfur

4 realgar

 

I omitted the realgar, for obvious reasons

 

50/50 do outside kno3 / sugar when liguid insert fuse great smoke bomb mate

[Mumbles]

Lactose is used instead of sucrose most of the time because A. it is not hygroscopic, sucrose is And B. lactose experiences pyrolysis much differently to sucrose, and does not dehydrogenate as quickly as sucrose, meaning that sucrose will leave behind more unburnt carbon than lactose will.

 

Its difficult to explain, but essentially, sucrose in the end will not release as much carbon in the form of volatile hydrocarbon gas as will lactose. and we all know more carbon means more heat and so less carbon means less heat.

This also means that lactose burns much more efficiently at lower tempuratures than sucrose will.

Excessive carbon along with chlorate however can make the smoke mixture burn at a much higher temperature if more or less sucrose is added than needed.

 

I'm curious if there are any references to back up any of the stuff you just said? I still partly believe that lactose will burn cooler than sucrose, but your explanation does not do any convincing for me.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

well there are the wikipedia pages on lactose and sucrose, then there were a few pages on pyrolysis which i will post links to later as i must leave for school in a moment and i cant immediately find the links on google.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

here are some pages i read on this. From this and what i read in wikipedia i was able to piece together why lactose burns hotter, but why sucrose has the potential to burn even hotter, than lactose, but also cooler than lactose.

 

http://www.lactose.c...properties.html

 

http://www.journalof...2364-3/abstract

 

there were other sources but i cant seem to find them. but basically they said similar things to the above as well as that lactose needs more heat to fully decompose it and its products than sucrose, and that at such high tempuratures lactose will be able to reach its flash point with less dehydrolysation and decomposition than sucrose will

Edited September 8, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[Parared]

Hello,

I need more dye supplier with address?

 

This video is cool thumbs up

 

 

Does anyone know this guy?

 

Regards

 

 

Hello forum,

 

I also have an interesting dye address!

 

Does anyone know the provider?

 

http://www.imperialc...olvent-Dyes.asp

 

 

Regards

 

Parared from Germany

[oldmanbeefjerky]

I just found a 500g bag of lactose powder for beer sweetening, at my local tip (dump) shop!

 

i payed $3 for it, along with some bbq peizos i found.

 

better yet though, the manufacturer sells very cheaply and in my area as well!

 

Time to found out which is better in practical, lactose or sucrose!