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Veline's Red problem [Video]


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#1 olof91

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 05:05 AM

Hi,
I'm new to this forum, but I've been into pyrotechnics for a couple of years.

I made my first batch of Veline red stars last week, and they've beeb drying for 5 days now.
The problem is that they are reeaally hard to ignite even though they're primed with Veline's superprime. How come? (They are completely dry!)

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=N8wxZBBPFdo

Edited by olof91, 07 February 2011 - 05:06 AM.


#2 Ralph

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 05:26 AM

prime the supper prime with blackpowder and that should solve your problems
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#3 olof91

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 05:39 AM

prime the supper prime with blackpowder and that should solve your problems


I normally wouldn't mix Black powder containing sulfur with perchlorates, but you're saying that should be OK? And how many % BP should I mix in with the superprime?

#4 Ralph

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 06:18 AM

no you add it as a layer over the top of the supper prime this ignites the supper prime which ignites the star
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#5 pyrogeorge

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 11:56 AM

I normally wouldn't mix Black powder containing sulfur with perchlorates, but you're saying that should be OK? And how many % BP should I mix in with the superprime?

P.Chlorate must be avoided.You haven't any problem to prime it with BP

#6 petroleum

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 01:24 PM

I made my first batch of Veline red stars last week, and they've beeb drying for 5 days now.
The problem is that they are reeaally hard to ignite even though they're primed with Veline's superprime. How come? (They are completely dry!)



You can use somewhat like Hot Prime from Shimizu book or any similar comp (system KClO4/Red Gum/Charcoal+Al/Al-Mg). I think It will resolve your problem.



#7 Bonny

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 09:22 PM

The veline super prime or similar will work fine, but as Ralph said, add a layer of BP over top. The BP ensures fast and easy ignition of the stars or next layer.

#8 Peret

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 10:58 PM

If your Veline stars are anything like mine, the prime is lighting up just fine, it's the star underneath that doesn't catch. A BP coat won't cure that, you need thicker and hotter prime. You might try modifying the formula slightly, by using silicon instead of magnalium. You are including the iron oxide and potassium dichromate, right?

If you're having trouble lighting Veline Red, just wait until you try Veline Green.

#9 Ralph

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 11:27 PM

If your Veline stars are anything like mine, the prime is lighting up just fine, it's the star underneath that doesn't catch. A BP coat won't cure that, you need thicker and hotter prime. You might try modifying the formula slightly, by using silicon instead of magnalium. You are including the iron oxide and potassium dichromate, right?

If you're having trouble lighting Veline Red, just wait until you try Veline Green.


if you looked at his video once the prime to fire so did the star (this may not be the case in the sky)

wouldnt it be easier to use a nicer looking red that ignites more easily ?
The day you willing put a price on another man's life, is the day you sell your soul


Im blunt, so don't get all cut up when I tell it like it is

#10 olof91

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 01:48 AM

If your Veline stars are anything like mine, the prime is lighting up just fine, it's the star underneath that doesn't catch. A BP coat won't cure that, you need thicker and hotter prime. You might try modifying the formula slightly, by using silicon instead of magnalium. You are including the iron oxide and potassium dichromate, right?

If you're having trouble lighting Veline Red, just wait until you try Veline Green.


That might be the problem, I didn't have any potassium dichromate so I went without it.

I've seen many people primning the stars with pure BP, is there a risk to it? because that would be much more simple than first adding a layer superprime then adding the BP.

#11 Peret

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 03:53 AM

Most perchlorate stars, and definitely barium nitrate stars, need a hotter prime than just BP to get them going. The dichromate acts as a catalyst to make the prime ignite at a lower temperature. The magnalium is there to make it burn hot. I tried silicon to reduce the bright prime flare originally, but I found it lights the stars more reliably than magnalium. It makes a hot molten slag that clings to the surface instead of flaring off. But primes are a whole subject of their own, anyway. If you use a black powder base, most people recommend that you step prime - first a layer of 50% BP and 50% star compound, then BP over it. If that doesn't work use 4 layers (25/75, 50/50, 75/25, 100/0). The disadvantage is it makes the stars quite fat. Bleser recommends making the burst charge with excess oxidizer to help the stars ignite.

#12 pyr0ph1L

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 12:49 PM

I just prime my ruby red stars with regular 75/15/10 hardwood blackpowder with some dextrin in it of course.
Works every single time I shoot it out of a stargun. :)
Pyro runs in my veins

#13 WSM

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 07:01 AM

I know R. Veline personally and he wouldn't put something in a formula he felt was uneccessary (why would anyone?). Always try a formula exactly as given before modifying it so you have a basis or starting point and know where and what the differences are.

When I was making round stars on a regular basis (many years ago) I got to a point where I used one of my favorite glitter compositions as a thick prime on my color stars (most had parlon in them). I recall excellent ignition rates and the shell had a very full look with that glitter core at burst.

Always use a hot prime and lay it on thick for effective star ignition. Some professionals even coat the burst media with the same prime, insuring good ignition rates.

WSM B)

Veline's colors (by his own admission) were not the optimal colors possible, but a demonstration of compatible colors that can be mixed to produce a full palate of pyrotechnic colors, somewhat as a painter mixes basic colors to produce all the variations he needs to produce his masterpiece. Take them for what they are :D.

Edited by WSM, 02 June 2011 - 07:05 AM.


#14 wessendorf15

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:50 PM

hi guys im new to these forums but i have all the chems needed to make all the colors of the veline stars! but when i make them the fizzle and wont make good colors? all my powders are fine but i was thinking i should ball mill them all just incase. could my chemicals not be pure? anyone help?

#15 PyroAce

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 07:11 AM

hi guys im new to these forums but i have all the chems needed to make all the colors of the veline stars! but when i make them the fizzle and wont make good colors? all my powders are fine but i was thinking i should ball mill them all just incase. could my chemicals not be pure? anyone help?



How long are you drying your stars for? What mixing method are you using? It's always good to sieve the chemicals together at least 2 to 3 times. I also mix mine in a plastic tub with a lid on it by shaking it and tossing the mixture back and forth.

#16 rveline

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:10 PM

WSM B)

Veline's colors (by his own admission) were not the optimal colors possible, but a demonstration of compatible colors that can be mixed to produce a full palate of pyrotechnic colors, somewhat as a painter mixes basic colors to produce all the variations he needs to produce his masterpiece. Take them for what they are :D.

Edited by WSM, 02 June 2011 - 05:05 AM.


I could not have said it better myself. rveline

I usually made the prime as a slurry, I put enough slurry prime on (about 20-30% by weight) on the stars to make a stuck-together glob.

Then I put them into drying trays until the top layer of stars lose thier gloss, put them back into a bowl and agitate until all the moisture is evenly redistrubted.

Repeat until the stars no longer stick together while drying.

The point is, you want a prime that is thoroughly stuck to the star (by being wet enough to dissolve part of the outside layer of the star), but has a rough surface in order to catch the fire.

The repeated drying and stirring makes a low density, rough surface-that is easy to ignite- low density-burns fast. Do not repeat more than needed, else you rub all the fuzzies off the prime

#17 azhomegrown

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:45 AM

Its interesting to hear of these problems with the veline system. The only thing I could imagine is with the quality of the chems. I've found that all of my colors light relatively easily even some at times without prime when in the testing phase. I've only had to use minimal layers of prime, super prime in this case. I've heard of others using BP with 10% MgAl.

#18 dan999ification

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:53 AM

yes they light quite reliably with black match and no prime, i found them quite easy to light in boosted breaks with just a dusting of pinball prime, i dont like the idea of dichromate and find it unnnescasary if pinball works, however i have not tried the green or the colours that use it so dont yet know if ignition is reliable with pinball prime and these colours.

Dan.




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