ST1DinOH Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 sadly a friend of mine's uncle passed away. he was a hobbyist and he had quite a collection of chems. when he passed, i got the phone call that i was the only person they know who they trusted with the stuff. so i agree, and a few days later 3 large boxes show up. the chems are in all sorts of separate bags and containers in various conditions, some with labels, some without. 1. my very first concern is to separate and "secure" all of the chems into some sort of storage system that i can later label. 2. my next concern is to somehow verify that each of the labeled chems are indeed what they are marked. 3. after that, i'd like to somehow identify what these unmarked mystery chems are. 4. then i can make some stuff before i even get into taking pics and posting them so you guys can get a better idea of what i'm dealing with, i'd like to get step 1 out of the way ASAP. so i was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on a cheap effective way of storage . i know this seems like a silly question but frankly i don't have the money to waste on poor solutions and i'd hate to place these chems in anything that could pose a danger. my first thoughts were a bunch of stackable plastic bins but then i became concerned about static. currently the chems are mostly in white plastic tubs, some of the plastic tubs still have the labels on them from where they came from (skylighter, united nuclear, fire-fox), but there is no way to know for sure that what is inside the tub is what is on the sticker. all the chems are in zip-lock style baggies with a few exceptions (had several pill style bottles of OTC pharmaceutical sulfur). also, i have several bags of "silvery" powder and white powder that aren't marked. knowing what this guy liked to make (small salutes) i can assume these are the classic 70/30 chems but i'd like to be sure. is there a way to test this stuff? *for the record, one of the first things i did with the various bags of "silvery" powder was test each one in small tissue paper balls with a torch and none of them would take passfire. so i'm fairly certain i do not have any pre-mixed compositions but i will continue to assume i do until i know for sure. i come here asking these questions because IMO this is a dangerous situation and i'd like to get this stuff secure ASAP. as soon as i know the best way to store this stuff i'll be buying what it takes and getting it secured so any help you guys can offer will help me sleep better at night. currently everything is being stored at a friends shop, and he is after me to either get this all sorted or get it out of there...so the sooner the better. so what the heck do i do with all this stuff? thanks in advance and sorry for the lack of pics, i just don't have access to the stuff right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shagaKahn Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Though you cannot be 100% certain, is there any reason to assume your uncle would use incorrectly labeled containers? If he was the least bit responsible about this he just would not have done that so I'd go with the assumption that what's in the containers is what is written on their labels. As for the silvery and white powders, your supposition is most likely correct and an easy way to confirm would be to mix up a tiny (under 10-gram) batch of 70/30 and see how it behaves with ignition. Your uncle was storing his chems in the containers they were shipped in and that sounds like the way you should proceed. Your concern for static is noted--but you also said you didn't think any of the chemicals were mixed so in their latent state static should not be a problem. As for analysis of the mystery comps, the easiest way to do that is to decide what you think a given substance MIGHT be and test-mix a tiny batch of it to a specification you are familiar with and see how it behaves. That's how the big boys do it--by starting with what they THINK it is and going from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST1DinOH Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Though you cannot be 100% certain, is there any reason to assume your uncle would use incorrectly labeled containers? If he was the least bit responsible about this he just would not have done that so I'd go with the assumption that what's in the containers is what is written on their labels. yeah if this were my uncle i would feel more comfortable, but it's a friends uncle and i never met him. not knowing the guy i am trying to be as cautious as possible. for all i know he could have had it all sorted on shelves so he knew what everything was and was just re-using the tubs. when he passed away, my firend just dumped everything into boxes and brought it to me. no rhyme or reason he just stuffed it into boxes and said "here". it just makes me nervous not knowing for sure but i would hope the chems with labels on them are indeed what they claim to be...would make life much easier. As for the silvery and white powders, your supposition is most likely correct and an easy way to confirm would be to mix up a tiny (under 10-gram) batch of 70/30 and see how it behaves with ignition. yeah see i thought about that, but i wanted to get it all secured before i did any testing. the only tests i've done so far was to rule out any pre-mixed comps. there are different grades of AL in there and i was very worried about the large bag of light colored AL. like light enough to be dark mixed with perc. you should have seen me tip-toeing that bag around the back yard before i tested it. in my defense it was a very large plastic bag and the thought of a small static discharge causing me to become a fine mist in a smoldering crater wasn't exactly enjoyable. Your uncle was storing his chems in the containers they were shipped in and that sounds like the way you should proceed. Your concern for static is noted--but you also said you didn't think any of the chemicals were mixed so in their latent state static should not be a problem. if the white plastic tubs are the way to go, then i need to find more, because about half of this collection of chems is in plastic bags or in old creamora cans...like i said...it's a mess. if anyone knows of a good affordable source on those white plastic tubs i'd appreciate a link As for analysis of the mystery comps, the easiest way to do that is to decide what you think a given substance MIGHT be and test-mix a tiny batch of it to a specification you are familiar with and see how it behaves. That's how the big boys do it--by starting with what they THINK it is and going from there. thank you for the suggestion, this sounds like the best possible way for me to figure out what i have. i'll try to get a list of what is claimed to be in the tubs, can's and bags when i go over to the shop this weekend. i've been avoiding it because it's so cold out (again with the static) but if i'm going to be in possession of this stuff i need to get it sorted ASAP. thanks for the response. -stoney Edited January 7, 2011 by ST1DinOH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Something else to consider on the white presumed oxidizer is wether it is chlorate or perchlorate. Anyone know an easy test to determine which is which? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Something else to consider on the white presumed oxidizer is wether it is chlorate or perchlorate. Anyone know an easy test to determine which is which?Mix it 50/50 with sulfur and see if rubbing a hammer back and forth on it sets it off. If the mystery oxidizer passes the test of not being easily ignited, I suppose it can't be 100% confirmed as perchlorate, but it should be easy to tell from extreme sensitivity when you're dealing with chlorate. Somewhere to start. Edit: Or how about trying to ignite a little 50/50 ratio of oxidizer/sugar with sulfuric acid Edited January 7, 2011 by NightHawkInLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 For white plastic tubs and other containers: Container and Packaging Supply. I buy my containers there. They give fast service and don't mind small orders, also they have an extremely wide range. Don't forget to order lids separately though, as they're not included with the containers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 You might be surprised at how close chlorate and perchlorate with sulfur are with regards to friction sensitivity. Both will pop in a mortar and pestle with out a great deal of effort. I'd go with the sugar and sulfuric acid route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST1DinOH Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Mix it 50/50 with sulfur and see if rubbing a hammer back and forth on it sets it off. If the mystery oxidizer passes the test of not being easily ignited, I suppose it can't be 100% confirmed as perchlorate, but it should be easy to tell from extreme sensitivity when you're dealing with chlorate. Somewhere to start. Edit: Or how about trying to ignite a little 50/50 ratio of oxidizer/sugar with sulfuric acid You might be surprised at how close chlorate and perchlorate with sulfur are with regards to friction sensitivity. Both will pop in a mortar and pestle with out a great deal of effort. I'd go with the sugar and sulfuric acid route. thanks for the ideas gents. once i get things organized i'll be doing some investigations and i'll report back. i'll want to look into this "sugar and sulfuric acid" method when the time comes. For white plastic tubs and other containers: Container and Packaging Supply. I buy my containers there. They give fast service and don't mind small orders, also they have an extremely wide range. Don't forget to order lids separately though, as they're not included with the containers. sweet, thanks. now to figure out what container i want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 IIRC Weingart has a section near the back with methods of determining the analysis of fireworks, and with this you could get some knowledge of several containers full. Vogel's book Qualitative Inorganic Analysis will give you spot tests for everything you can think of, but it may be OTT for price as it is now very old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Vogel's book Qualitative Inorganic Analysis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperheadi69 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Thanks Very Much PERET I did not have that one in the Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogue1000 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Oh good luck Stoney! I know you will be looking forward to step #4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro55 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Methylene blue to check chlorate Something else to consider on the white presumed oxidizer is wether it is chlorate or perchlorate. Anyone know an easy test to determine which is which? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Methylene blue to check chlorate Actually to test for perchlorates, chlorates don't react with methylene blue. In fact 0.05 grams in 100 ml distilled water for a standard test solution. It's stable and keeps for years. I keep it in a PE dropper bottle for handy tests. Perchlorate solutions turn purple, where chlorate and nitrate solutions stay blue. To test for chlorate, try either aniline hydrochloride or indigo carmine or N-phenylanthranilic acid reagent tests. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST1DinOH Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Oh good luck Stoney! I know you will be looking forward to step #4. hey pouge, nice to see you here too. and hell yes i'm looking forward to step 4 thanks again for all the tips to all those who've contributed. i'll keep this thread updated as things progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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