Lift charge problems

[wasd]

Hello everyone first timer here, my meal powder was milled for 8 hours and I did the meal with Alcohol (70%) and granulated it. Seemed to burn nice when I tested it, but I tried building a ball shell and added the cup on bottom (it was 27g shell so did 3g of granulated) But problem was when it lite, the shell flew 2 feet into the air and then back to the ground, the shell did lite but it was only a test with no stars so it wasnt bad but im just wondering why it didnt go anywhere? it seemed to be a good fit inside the tube.

 

Any help would be great, i have nothing to do right now.

Edited July 6, 2010 by wasd

[Ventsi]

Can you try to give us ALL the details?

 

1;What kind of ballmill were you using, media?

 

2;What was the binder, what %?

 

3; What type of charcoal did you use?

 

4;Are you sure the powder was completely dry when you used it?

 

5;How long is your mortar, what caliber(inches)?

 

6;How does the powder perform when burnt in an open pile?

 

7;How did you load the lift charge? In a lift cup? Just oured in the mortar?

 

8;Was the shell a tight fit, was it a canister or ball shell?

 

=]

[wasd]

1. Using the Harbor Freight 3lb (What are ways to speed it up? Ive seen people post but couldnt find)

 

2. No dextrin used Iso Alcohol.

 

3. AirFloat from high grade softwood

 

4. Most likely was, in sun for 5hours

 

5. It was one from pyrodirect (1.75inch shells and mortar free)

 

6. In pile burns pretty fast, will post videos soon as I can get one up.

 

7. Was in a cup

 

8. Was a good fit, shell.

 

Thanks for quick reply

Can you try to give us ALL the details?

 

1;What kind of ballmill were you using, media?

 

2;What was the binder, what %?

 

3; What type of charcoal did you use?

 

4;Are you sure the powder was completely dry when you used it?

 

5;How long is your mortar, what caliber(inches)?

 

6;How does the powder perform when burnt in an open pile?

 

7;How did you load the lift charge? In a lift cup? Just oured in the mortar?

 

8;Was the shell a tight fit, was it a canister or ball shell?

 

=]

[wasd]

Video and pictures

 

Edited July 6, 2010 by wasd

[Ventsi]

1. Using the Harbor Freight 3lb (What are ways to speed it up? Ive seen people post but couldnt find)

 

2. No dextrin used Iso Alcohol.

 

3. AirFloat from high grade softwood

 

4. Most likely was, in sun for 5hours

 

5. It was one from pyrodirect (1.75inch shells and mortar free)

 

6. In pile burns pretty fast, will post videos soon as I can get one up.

 

7. Was in a cup

 

8. Was a good fit, shell.

 

Thanks for quick reply

 

Alright, seems like you are half and half.

 

1. If you are using a Harbor Freight mill[tumbler], 8hours will be fine for 100g in there, how much did you load to mill?

 

2. This is a must, you NEED a binder which is what dextrin is, and water to activate it, Isoprpyl Alc will do absolutely nothing, its likely that it turned to powder after handling and it did not burn as fast because the fire could not get through. When you use a binder you get nice granules, the fire can spread faster trough the small gaps between the granules, making it in a sence burn faster.

 

3. Can you tell us what type of wood it was exactly, willow and alder seem to be very good choices both cheap and excellent performers.

 

4. Because you used alcohol, that might be enough time, but to be sure, I'd let it dry for a full 24hours next time.

 

Everything else looks good, and no problem , just bored at work here...

[wasd]

Alright, seems like you are half and half.

 

1. If you are using a Harbor Freight mill[tumbler], 8hours will be fine for 100g in there, how much did you load to mill?

 

2. This is a must, you NEED a binder which is what dextrin is, and water to activate it, Isoprpyl Alc will do absolutely nothing, its likely that it turned to powder after handling and it did not burn as fast because the fire could not get through. When you use a binder you get nice granules, the fire can spread faster trough the small gaps between the granules, making it in a sence burn faster.

 

3. Can you tell us what type of wood it was exactly, willow and alder seem to be very good choices both cheap and excellent performers.

 

4. Because you used alcohol, that might be enough time, but to be sure, I'd let it dry for a full 24hours next time.

 

Everything else looks good, and no problem , just bored at work here...

 

Would have let you known but thats all it said about the charcoal and that it was black powder approved. But for those granules that I have can I just mass them all up and then make them with dextrin? i was thinking 4% dextrin because by the looks of it people say 5% may be too much, thanks for quick replies. Hopefully this is enough to keep you not as bored at work. Hopefully the picture and video helped.

[Arthur]

I'd also suggest that the pasting needs to be sufficient to let the shell fit snugly in the tube. For a 45mm tube the shell needs to be at least 43 mm dia or even 44mm. The lift needs to be granulated with 1.5% red gum and alcohol, or 3.5% dextrin with a 25% alcohol in water solvent.

 

For shells that small a fine granulation helps say 20 - 40mesh.

[wasd]

I'd also suggest that the pasting needs to be sufficient to let the shell fit snugly in the tube. For a 45mm tube the shell needs to be at least 43 mm dia or even 44mm. The lift needs to be granulated with 1.5% red gum and alcohol, or 3.5% dextrin with a 25% alcohol in water solvent.

 

For shells that small a fine granulation helps say 20 - 40mesh.

 

It fit really snug in the tube, i was almost scared it wouldnt go to the bottom it was that tight, maybe thats bad? but IT DID get to the bottom im sure, with the bad granulated i put it in a ball mill for 30min and it was powdered again and then I did 100grams BP with 4grams of Dextrin and mixed with ONLY WATER, well see how that works. Ill wait 24hours and let you guys know.

[dagabu]

WSAD,

 

Using the rock tumbler, you will need the full 24 hours to get it milled properly. Fill one half of the jar with media and fill the jar with enough comp to just cover the media (shake it down). Your BP seems to be burning slowly but I dont see any sulfur sitting in clumps so that is good. In order to test it fully, make a 1/4 to 1/2" by 36" long trough of BP and light one side. It should take less then 1/2 second to burn form one end to the other.

 

Use 4% dextrin, alcohol is wasted in this comp unless you are using red gum for binder, 10-20% can help whet the comp. Alcohol will not make the BP better then water.

 

Add just enough water to make the BP shiny when you pat a ball of it in your hand, not wet, just slightly shiny. Then press it through a 10-12 mesh screen and let dry.

 

Ignore the 10% rule on a shell that small, you need gas to propel the shell, start with 5grams minimum and go up from there.

 

That sounds like a good candidate for a gold ball that is pasted. You can use them several times.

 

Good luck!

[wasd]

You really think 24hours? Thats a bit much, the most ive heard on here is 12hours and that said thats excessive and that 8hours would be fine. Thats nuts i mean if this granulated doesnt work i can try 24hours and see what happens.

But yeah there is not left over residue when i light the BP and when I made it i did use 4% dextrin and then enough water till it packed nice and i could get it through the screen. I guess I can try more BP lift next time but seems pointless when the shell doesnt go 2feet with 4grams, atleast maybe if it went 10feet or so sure haha. Thanks for the advice, any anyone here ill be trying everything till something works, so ill taking all advice dont be shy

 

WSAD,

 

Using the rock tumbler, you will need the full 24 hours to get it milled properly. Fill one half of the jar with media and fill the jar with enough comp to just cover the media (shake it down). Your BP seems to be burning slowly but I dont see any sulfur sitting in clumps so that is good. In order to test it fully, make a 1/4 to 1/2" by 36" long trough of BP and light one side. It should take less then 1/2 second to burn form one end to the other.

 

Use 4% dextrin, alcohol is wasted in this comp unless you are using red gum for binder, 10-20% can help whet the comp. Alcohol will not make the BP better then water.

 

Add just enough water to make the BP shiny when you pat a ball of it in your hand, not wet, just slightly shiny. Then press it through a 10-12 mesh screen and let dry.

 

Ignore the 10% rule on a shell that small, you need gas to propel the shell, start with 5grams minimum and go up from there.

 

That sounds like a good candidate for a gold ball that is pasted. You can use them several times.

 

Good luck!

[Mumbles]

BP burns with a pressure dependence. As such there is kind of a critical point where it flops vs. really fires out of there. A few grams might not be able to build up enough pressure to make the lift go off all at once. The video made it seem like you have pretty decent stuff. I agree that you should start with 5g and go from there.

 

I was able to get decent BP from a rock tumbler in 8-12hr. With a proper charge and a faster RPM you can lessen the time a bit. You might need 24hr to get to the level of the big highly efficient mills. I've always been willing to add a few more grams of BP than waste my day getting it as powerful as possible.

 

It sounds like you're on the right track.

[dagabu]

ou might need 24hr to get to the level of the big highly efficient mills.

 

With rubber drums (especially the 3# ones) the impacts are very small and the cascading effect it greatly diminished. I use 5/8" SST balls or 3/4" ceramic spheres for most of my grinding in 6" ID PVC jars and I like to mill my BP until it starts to clump. That can take several hours even with my jars.

 

You will need several more hours to get the best BP you can get out of those jars.

 

Don't give up, you are almost there!

[wasd]

Alright well thanks everyone, i will try building another shell and adding more charge to the bottom within the next hour or so and well see what happens. But for now this is whats has happened. Made the new BP with dextrin last night been drying right around 12hours now, just put it back outside to dry some more and have video of new test, it does seem better then old. I have comparison. Did 2 new videos just now 1st one is the new BP (the bp in the crack) and next is on the flat. Also ball milling some of my black powder that has been already done for 8hours for about another 4 and well see how that works out.

 

Heres the videos, trying everything like you guys are saying. and yes i'm using ceramic 1/2" media.

New granulated.

 

 

Old

 

[wasd]

So i dont know if this will help or not, but when the shell is launched, it doesnt make a very loud noise, very soft. What could be causing that? Because i know when i light a commercial one it makes a loud noise, when i just had mine it was very soft.. did got about 30feet this time though.

[dagabu]

Try 7 grams, then 10 grams. You essentially can't over do the charge in these.

[Ventsi]

Try a longer mortar. That helped me solve my 2" shell problems.

Also, try screening and sorting your powder. Have three screens, 12mesh, 20 mesh and 40 mesh. Use whatever passes 20 and stays on 40. Also try a stronger, more reinforced lift cup.

 

 

[wasd]

Im pretty sure i got upto 15grams or so and it sounded better. But thats just crazy how i have 15 grams alone in a lift. Thanks guys ill keep trying more and more. Going to try finding a better lift cup, whats a good thing to use? ive jut been making them from kraft paper.

[dagabu]

Sorry, I don't see the need for a strong lift cup. I just try to keep the cup low or just plastic bag the lift with quick match.

[wasd]

So tried the new granulated BP used only 11G of it and was much better than the other stuff. Went up in the air.. however the shell was very quiet. Whatever first one that worked right? Keep on trying! thats what im doing here. Just glad the first one is out of the way, now time to try more things and hopefully have better and results. Edited July 7, 2010 by wasd

[LittleOsama]

Being a 'new member' i can't view the attachments for some reason so i can't see your BP burn test, but the reason your shell didn't fly high and didn't make a bang is that your powder is simply too slow for lifting (i can't see it atm, but there really is no other explanation). Making fast BP isn't unfortunately so easy and it doesn't come overnight, but with right guidance you will get there sooner or later

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=HT3-C1BtsNE here's my BP for lift and break (burn test).

 

-edit-

After posting i can now see the video. Your powder is currently waaaay to slow for lifting anything. If you watch your burn test frame by frame then it reaches it's maximum in 8'th frame after it ignites (your video is 25fps). My video is 30fps and there is flame only in 1 frame. It doesn't need to be that fast in order to work as lift powder, but if you burn 2gr of BP then it should reach it's max burn in 4'th frame at latest - anything slower won't work for lift (for smaller shells).

If you want i can give you some tips about making bp, but send me msg trough youtube, as i might not read forum very often.

Edited July 11, 2010 by LittleOsama

[Mumbles]

The ignition device has a lot to do with speed. A blow torch blows the powder/granules around and makes it all ignite at once. wasd is using a grill ignitor where the granules only ignite from the surface on the side where the flame is. It still is a bit slow.

 

I suspect it is from the wood. Without really knowing what kind of wood it is, it's hard to tell. Softwoods generally give poorer BP than hardwoods. You may want to try to locate some known good wood, and cook your own. You don't need too much, just some sort of control. If your BP by any chance clumps in the mill, try stopping it every few hours and breaking it up to let it actually mill for the full time.

[TheSidewinder]

LittleOsama: The reason for not seeing the attachments was, you were a "Member" until you made one reply, and now you're a "Full Member". The "Member" Group is restricted in a number of ways. Keeps the spammers away.

[wasd]

Hey thanks guys, i dont know what i did but after trying many different things (same chemicals) i have made some decent BP

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqht7yRLBXI

sorry for long weight for launch.

Edited July 11, 2010 by wasd

[LittleOsama]

The ignition device has a lot to do with speed. A blow torch blows the powder/granules around and makes it all ignite at once. wasd is using a grill ignitor where the granules only ignite from the surface on the side where the flame is. It still is a bit slow.

Ignition method plays very small part in burn time. I can make a video to prove it, but bottom line is that slow powder will burn slow no matter how you ignite it. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7YIVZDRzobM there's one patch i made in winter (lighted with matches). Only thing that has noticeable effect is amount of powder used. More powder = longer burning time.

 

But i would also recommend to make your own charcoal. Pine, Maple, Balsa, Willow are just some trees that will give good quality lift power - pine is probably easiest to get.

Edited July 12, 2010 by LittleOsama

[pogue1000]

So are these Harbor Freight mills a reliable way of making BP? I have most of the materials of making a bigger mill but just dont have the time. And the cost of media to fill my homemade mill seems like it would add up. I was thinking maybe this harbor freight mill would be ideal for grinding individual chems at least?

 

Maybe i will just go ahead and pick one up this weekend. At what size shell would this bill be a waste of time due to the size limitations?