lnstantkarma Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi I've just begun producing stars and shells and I plan on using the veline tables. I have a good seller for kclo4 but on my most recent order I'm concerned that its kclo3 because it is labeled and packaged differently. So what I want to know is if there is a way to tell the two apart. The only discernible difference I could find was that the kclo4 smelled more like flour and in general good, the stuff I have now doesn't smell like anything. Also of course it would be great if the two were interchangeable for the veline tables if anyone has had any experience with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozentech Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hi I've just begun producing stars and shells and I plan on using the veline tables. I have a good seller for kclo4 but on my most recent order I'm concerned that its kclo3 because it is labeled and packaged differently. So what I want to know is if there is a way to tell the two apart. The only discernible difference I could find was that the kclo4 smelled more like flour and in general good, the stuff I have now doesn't smell like anything. Also of course it would be great if the two were interchangeable for the veline tables if anyone has had any experience with them. NOT interchangeable. Quickest test, drop some concentrated Sulfuric acid on a little bit, chlorate should burst into flame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnstantkarma Posted August 13, 2007 Author Share Posted August 13, 2007 Thanks, I didn't think they were interchangeable. I don't think I have any H2SO4 laying around but I might be able to find some drain cleaner hopefully that will suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudidotdk Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 Sulfur+KClO3 is very sensitive, if mixing a tiny amount and hit with a hammer it will explode. This should of course be done with care and proper safety gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnstantkarma Posted August 13, 2007 Author Share Posted August 13, 2007 Hmm I should be getting some sulfur soon, and for the other method of adding H2SO4 will sulfamic acid work? or phosphoric? okay neither sulfamic acid nor phosphoric acid worked, it just dissolved them, the possible kclo3 seemed to dissolve quicker though I just realized that kclo3 is much more soluble in water than kclo4 and I put five grams of each into 100g of water and the possible kclo3 seemed to dissolve much better...crap Well I guess I can email the guy but I'll probably just try to find some chlorate based star formulas. Okay this is just not making any sense, I filtered out the samples from the water and I'll have to let them dry to get a weight, but I got some leftover from both. If the stuff I have is kclo3 it should have dissolved completely. It just doesn't make sense but the kclo4 turned into clumps and the kclo3 (possible) stayed like a powder basically. Does anyone know whats going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tentacles Posted August 13, 2007 Share Posted August 13, 2007 The KClO4 we can get is not very pure... KClO3 is more pure because it is a very dangerous product with even slight impurities.. Some tests have shown as much as 10% contamination in KClO4.. (The "High Purity" stuff is the worst, actually) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swany Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Sulfur and KClO4 is also very sensitive as well, though! Perchlorate IS more safe than chlorate, but it is still sensitive. Mushing it in a mortar and pestle will still make it crackle; less than chlorate/sulfur, but it is still scary. Jim Freeman (5 time PGI grandmaster or something, freakish shellbuilder) demonstrated this and he doesn't have anything against chlorate because perchlorate is safer, but with respect both can be used. Chlorate is needed in some instances, like Zn stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hashashan Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Here you go some simple tests: KClO4 solubility 1.5 g/l KClO3 solubility about 7g/l .. it will b eenough to determine whether there is any perchlorate there at all. if you want something better. just dissolve some of it in water and add HCl, if ther color changes to yello, orange etc. then its KClO3. for more sensetive tests youll need some chemicals that I doubt you have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Freeman is a 6 time grandmaster IIRC. Somehow, even his fuckups look good. Yes, he still uses lots of chlorates. He also still uses HCB and thermalite too. Damn him and his stashes. Anyway, just adding sulfuric acid to chlorate wont make it burst into flames. You have to have an organic in there. Try mixing roughly 1:1 by volume table sugar and the oxidiser in question, and add the sulfuric acid. You will definatly be able to tell then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asilentbob Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Sulfur and KClO4 is also very sensitive as well, though! Perchlorate IS more safe than chlorate, but it is still sensitive. Mushing it in a mortar and pestle will still make it crackle; less than chlorate/sulfur, but it is still scary. Jim Freeman (5 time PGI grandmaster or something, freakish shellbuilder) demonstrated this and he doesn't have anything against chlorate because perchlorate is safer, but with respect both can be used. Chlorate is needed in some instances, like Zn stars. Yes, i saw a bit of that seminar (small inserts w/flash) ... i can't recall exactly what perchlorate composition he was grinding in that mortar and pestle... but it was popping quite readily... Roy Feathers was setting up stuff for his seminar while Jim was doing that seminar and i gradually lost interest in Jim's seminar as it started to get into casings or such that wasn't particularly interesting and i migrated over to talk to Roy and watch him roll papers for his hand rolled, hand chocked KNO3/Su rockets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swany Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 It was just KClO4/S. Yeah, he tended to ramble a bit, hahahaha. I missed hand-choked rockets.... supersad. His crossette shell was amazing though, he was right about that. The perchlorate anion is more stable than chlorate due to resonance and geometry (tetrahedral). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankRizzo Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Is it just me, or did Roy seem a bit "off" to you fellas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swany Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 I think he smoked a few bowls beforehand. Then again, he was carrying a container of his KClO3/S mix... Completely insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I saw Roy's presentation last year. It was interesting, but I have to agree with you guys. He seemed a tad off his rocker. I think he practices rolling his fuses with something besides BP, and spends a little too much time around solvents, and possibly mercury. Yeah, Freeman tends to ramble a bit, it's all interesting stuff though. He seems a bit disorganized too. He starts talking about dragon eggs, the next thing you know you find out how to make 5" crossette shells, and color changing chrysanthemum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonny Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Here you go some simple tests: KClO4 solubility 1.5 g/l KClO3 solubility about 7g/l .. it will b eenough to determine whether there is any perchlorate there at all. if you want something better. just dissolve some of it in water and add HCl, if ther color changes to yello, orange etc. then its KClO3. for more sensetive tests youll need some chemicals that I doubt you have My KClO3 was labelled, but I had forgotten to label KClO4, although I knew which container it was in.I did the test last night with HCl,just to be sure. KClO3 turned yellow, no change to KClO4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnstantkarma Posted August 31, 2007 Author Share Posted August 31, 2007 I just got some sulfur today so I finally was able to test my kclo4? I mixed a little of each with sulfur (less than a gram) and hit it with a hammer. Nothing happened with either so that means its definitely kclo4 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Not neccesarily. Perc and sulfur doesn't take much more force to set off than chlorate does. It should have snapped. It might be neither I suppose. The sulfuric acid test is probably the best one. You could also grow some crystals of it. Chlorate grows as plates or thin needles. Perchlorate grows as rhombic crystals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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