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Kclo4 with Bleach?


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#1 PyrofireM100

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 09:42 AM

I think create a Cell is very difficoult , but make kclo4 with Bleach is more easy , I see on YouTube that I must boil the bleach to make naclo3, after I mix it with kcl and with this process I make kclo3. after I put kclo3 in a ceramic jar and heat up it to convert kclo3 in kclo4. I have bleach 14 %. Does it is a good procedure?

#2 Mumbles

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 11:49 PM

Melting chlorate never goes to full conversion to perchlorate.  I'm not sure about perchlorates, but chloride contamination sensitizes chlorates.  Given that you'll never get rid of all the chlorate without a lot of difficulty, I'd consider anything made via this method more sensitive than pure materials.  


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#3 Scorpion812

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 03:23 AM

I don't recommend you try this method at all, its extremely expensive and inefficient. Also, in my opinion, electrolysis is really not that complicated, get this : http://store.theamat...-3-with-4-stem/ and this: http://store.theamat...-3-with-4-stem/ and build a cell from a 1 gallon pickle jar and replace the cap with a pvc end cap. Secure the electrodes with silicon and attach a tube for the gas and youre set. Be sure to read the perchlorate thread and maybe first try potassium chlorate with the mmo. also, this is a great cheap power supply that fits most need with those electrodes: https://www.ebay.com...0-/130640364671


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#4 PyrofireM100

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 07:28 AM

Thanks, but do I must prepare a solution with kcl and electrolize it for 2 weeks to make kclo4 using 5 volt and 20 Amp? Because I see on internet that convert kcl to kclo4 need al lot of time

#5 Arthur

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 07:51 AM

Electrolytic production of chlorate and perc IS the commercial method at this time. Yes it takes amps for weeks to make much product.

 

Remember that only platinum or Lead Dioxide anodes will add the fourth oxygen atom. Lots of cheaper materials from carbon rods upwards will make chlorate but NOT perc.



#6 PyrofireM100

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 05:05 PM

If I create a good cell how much time do I need to make a good quantity /percentage of kclo4? How do I can understand if the quantity of kclo4 is good? And how I can do to destroy the kclo3 residue?

#7 Mumbles

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 06:44 PM

https://www.amateurp...m-per-chlorate/


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#8 patsroom

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 10:31 PM

Looks like someone has a lot of reading to do. But if you do read it all you will have a good understanding  how it is done and that it is far better that trying to use bleach. There are few shortcuts in wanting and getting kclo4, going with bleach is not one of them IMHO. And once you can make you own kclo4 you will have few limitations in making your own fireworks.............Pat



#9 Scorpion812

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:56 AM

You can NOT make KClO4 from KCl directly



#10 MrB

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:02 AM

You can NOT make KClO4 from KCl directly

 

Debatable. Lead dioxide anodes convert KCl to KClO3, and then KClO3 to KClO4, without user interaction. The problem seems to be getting quality anodes. I'm STILL looking for a tube, mesh, LD anode, preferably with a round rod, or a pair of round rods, rather then strips to connect it.



#11 PyrofireM100

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:03 AM

Can I do a cell with NaCl and a convert it on naclo3 and after on naclo4? After to destroy clorate can I use sodium metabisulfite? After this procedure do I must mix naclo4 with kcl to make kclo4?

#12 Arthur

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:06 PM

That is, in my opinion, the way that it should be done.

 

There are two major points to consider.

 

1/ getting enough sodium chlorate in a warm cell that it precipitates out cleanly when chilled, (If you can recover precipitated sodium chlorate there is little to no chloride present)

 

2/ getting a reliable and affordable perc cell anode

 

If you take perc cell electrolyte and add saturated KCl solution (in water)  to the it KClO4 precipitates out first, if you add excess KCl then a second crop can be recovered but it is Potassium Chlorate.

 

Doing the calculations to quantify all of the above and allow for limited efficiency and still get the quantity of KCl required for getting clean perc is where the mathematical chemistry comes in. Remember that an electrochemical cell will heat due to resistive current, so not all electricity into the cell will make the desired product.



#13 PyrofireM100

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

But If I make a cell for naclo3, how I can do the naclo4? Electrolizing the solution for a lot of time?

#14 scoin56

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 06:19 PM

hi guys, 

 

so i was able to buy some kclo4 dirt cheap,but i think their might be a problem with it. I got in contact with my supplier and said it was nothing wrong with his product. 

but after doing  some research and running some tests i came to my conclusion i was sold kcl. would love your help assuring me the product is bad. thank you guys

 

tests done:

solubility test

i was able to dissolve about 20 grams of the presumed kclo4 in 100ml of water.  did not pass

 

burn test with sulfur 50:50 mix 

will barely  burn

 

burn test with sugar 50:50

it did burn

 

aluminum test 

kclo4 was balled milled 7 hours passed my 325mesh screen

mixed 70:30 eckart german blackhead 5413 h super

it would barely burn and when it did it was very slow

 

final test

methlelyne blue test

 mixed in a test tube and didnot turn dark violet it stayed blue



#15 MrB

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 08:53 PM

KCl and 50% sugar, pretty much just wouldn't burn, at all. The sulfur mix might burn, but leave the KCl untouched.

 

Well, i think.


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#16 scoin56

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 12:12 AM

Thank for the respond mrb, im baffled ive never had this problem. any other suggestions in testing it you might have?


Im just a bit frustrated because i purchased 100# pounds of it.

#17 pyrojig

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:33 AM

I would return that junk asap.... It clearly is not kcl04 . At this point does it matter what it is . ? 



#18 MrB

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 03:47 PM

I'm not convinced that this is junk, and not KClO4, or possibly KClO3.

 

Test i'd perform again. Boil water. Make a saturated solution by adding the salt, leaving some that doesn't dissolve on the bottom.

Pour of a know quantity, like 100ml, and evaporate it. Check how much salt was, by weight. (21 grams for KClO4, 53,5 for KClO3. 36 for KCl, but that isn't really a viable result, since KCl wont burn with sugar.)

 

Mix 10 grams of sugar with 25 grams of salt. This should burn rather violently and be possible to light by fuse. For a reasonable burn test, dry your chemicals.

Sulfur and KClO4 pretty much does nothing, as seen earlier, not really worth testing again.

 

The only thing that is out of character is the methylene blue test. Worth redoing while waiting for the 100ml of saturated solution to evaporate, and leave it's dry content behind, to verify proper testing procedures? Chill the leftovers of the saturated solution, and siphon of a small volume. Using a 0.3-0.5% solution of methylene blue, add a single drop the the test sample. Ignore the color of the fluid, and look for a light violet dusting settling on the bottom of the container.

(As far as i know, the fluid could remain blue, you are just going to get a violet precipitate if there is perchlorate present. Someone more familiar with this test might want to jump in here. Also, the test is VERY sensitive, and tiny amounts will give a positive result, so this is by no means an indication of purity.)



#19 scoin56

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 08:58 PM

Ok guys im back, i got back in to the work shop after dealing with the stomach flue.

 

so i was able to run some test and take video.

 

got the methylene blue test done

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube....ed/qDPRkumHQXI"frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

sugar test

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube....ed/AI9xHmZVqlM"frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

I was able to get a flash with a little help with a catalyst and in this ratio

30/40/30 kp/s/al

 

 

 

still drying the saturated solution 



#20 scoin56

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 02:16 PM

Ok the 100ml of saturated solution finaly dried, 36g finall product.

Edited by scoin56, 29 January 2018 - 02:16 PM.





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