Shelf Life Of Chems and Barium Questions

[MeowMix]

I'm about to send in my first order for about 50lbs of chems. Do I have to worry about these chems deteriorating over the few months that I won't be working with them? Also, I've seen a lot of stuff about barium being very hazardous.

 

- What precautions can I take to prevent being harmed?

- If the barium is left in a container and untouched, is there any chance of harm to people who are near to the container? (Myself)

- If I spill a large amount, or even a small amount, what should I do to clean it? I'll be working on kraft paper, along with the floor covered in it as well, to make easy cleanup.

[OldMarine]

I keep everything in sealed containers with desiccant packs in them. Barium isn't dangerous until you lick it off your fingers or snort a line of it. Wear a respirator and nitrile gloves while using.Clean your area and tools after using it, wash your hands, shower and change clothes and you'll be fine.

Home depot has disposable painter's coveralls at a decent price.

Edited May 29, 2016 by OldMarine

[AzoMittle]

To each their own but I like to work outside on a concrete pad faaaar away from any buildings or anything I'm not willing to risk setting on fire if god forbid something should happen. Makes cleanup rather easy, I just hose the area down. The best way to handle it though is to try to not make too much of a mess in the first place, it's inevitable that you'll end up with black boogers at some point though (invest in a respirator or at least a dust mask). The paper painter coveralls / bunny suits work great but they don't breathe very well and get hot/sweaty quickly, YMMV.

 

I did learn the hard way though, don't try to sweep up lightweight chems (like charcoal) as they can start floating around the air (considering it's called 'air float charcoal', it was kind of an 'oh, duh' moment) and make the mess even worse.

[Arthur]

Chemicals kept in bottles will stay good for years, but kept in flimsy packing the packing could disintegrate and spill the material and possibly mix it with other things. -beware biodegradable shop carrier bags.

 

Soluble barium salts will kill you if you ingest them, so don't spoon them into your mouth!

[Merlin]

Chemicals should store if they pick up water they can be dried. Just store then in a controled environment. As for barium it depends on solubility. Barium chloride will kill you easily whereas Barium sulfate is totally harmless. Barium sulfate is consumed for gastroenterological procedures. Any thing other than a barium sulfate simply do not injest.

[MadMat]

Agree with what was said entirely. Gloves and a good respirator are essential. If you are wondering why barium chloride is poisonous and barium sulfate isn't, it's because barium sulfate is very insoluble. If you swallow it (for example someone who is getting x-rays of their digestive tract) it will go through you unchanged. Some pyro chemicals are poisonous, but they're not like saran or nerve gas, for the most part, if you don't breath a lot of the dust or ingest them you will be fine.

[MeowMix]

Are there any other common chems I should be just as weary about?

[Arthur]

Pot Nitrate! picking up a 50pound bag will hurt, dropping it on your foot will hurt too.

 

More seriously, anything will hurt you if misused but no regular pyro chems will come out and get you like radiation through the bottle. Once you have the bottle open then you must work cleanly, and not ingest anything. Charcoal and smoke dyes are the messiest things but are probably the least toxic. Old formulae using lead nitrate or mercury chloride (either form) and Arsenic compounds are probably best avoided. But lead, arsenic and mercury have to get into the body to do harm so gloves to prevent skin absorption and a mask to prevent dust inhalation would be perfectly adequate.

 

IMO there is much more chance of you being burned by product than injured by the very occasional toxic substance.

[schroedinger]

Meow if you buy a chemical, just goto google and search for the chemicsl + msds and you get a safety sheet and look the chemical up at wikipedia.

 

In general you always want to use a respirator (one with a tight sealing lid, not the paper ones) to prevent yourself from inhaling chemicals. Even if the chemicals are non toxic, use it anyway. Lungs just don't like fine dust.

Also it is a good thing to always wear gloves when working with wet or dusty comp, to minimize take in via skin or reaction with the skin. If you assemble shell, everything you touch should be pretty nontoxic, as nearly everything gets bp coated, here you have to see for yourself if you want to use gloves or not.

 

Also get yourself some clothes exclusive for pyro, they get worn only in the workareas, not at home! Before you wash them, rinse them with water and don't wash together with other clothes (most hazourdos chemicals should be gone by good rinsing, but charcoal doesn't dissolve). Just wash them by hand or have multiple sets to have whole machine load.

Edited May 29, 2016 by schroedinger

[mabuse00]

The only thing that comes to my mind right know are magnesium and magnalium.

 

Both will degrade over time when not stored airtight. Magnalium will do this much slower, but on the long run it will degrade.

 

Note that ziplock bags are NOT airtight.

[lloyd]

Neither are HDPE ziplock bags moisture-proof. They'll block liquid water, but are permeable enough to vapor so as to offer very little protection over long storage.

 

LLoyd

[OldMarine]

What would be a good storage method for moisture/oxygen sensitive chems? I was confident with Ziploc bags until just now.

I realize I took meow's question rather vainly and didn't think it through:

I didn't think about the effect different chems would have on any given container in long term storage nor any reactions that could happen during that same time.

I gathered from reading that HDPE was best for most purposes but no one ever said for ALL!

I must have taken the recommendations for granted and ceased studying on it.

I'll be reading more......

Edited May 29, 2016 by OldMarine

[lloyd]

Patrick,

Chemicals that are REALLY sensitive should ordinarily be purchased in small-enough quantities so that they may be used up before that becomes a problem.

 

If you can't afford to do that, or have found a real "special deal", all sorts of solutions present.

 

First, the chemical should be as dry as it can be made without causing it to break down.

Second, HDPE isn't impermeable, but it's resistant, and the thicker it is, the better. Think of jars, jugs, canisters, and even multiple baggies.

Third, in industry, unless the material will eat up the drum, such chems are kept in gasketed steel drums.

 

I have some chems known to be sensitive to moisture that were packed by a fastidious amateur about ten years ago... in SIX layers of zip-lock baggies, then a fully-covered layer of packaging tape. So far, they still feel 'motile' in their packaging, which indicates moisture has not bothered them.

 

LLoyd

[OldMarine]

Thanks Lloyd, I was mainly concerned with strontium nitrate and hexamine because of moisture concerns but now I'm wondering about the effects of oxidizers and how long they can be stored in HDPE without repackaging.

[MeowMix]

Patrick,

Chemicals that are REALLY sensitive should ordinarily be purchased in small-enough quantities so that they may be used up before that becomes a problem.

 

If you can't afford to do that, or have found a real "special deal", all sorts of solutions present.

 

First, the chemical should be as dry as it can be made without causing it to break down.

Second, HDPE isn't impermeable, but it's resistant, and the thicker it is, the better. Think of jars, jugs, canisters, and even multiple baggies.

Third, in industry, unless the material will eat up the drum, such chems are kept in gasketed steel drums.

 

I have some chems known to be sensitive to moisture that were packed by a fastidious amateur about ten years ago... in SIX layers of zip-lock baggies, then a fully-covered layer of packaging tape. So far, they still feel 'motile' in their packaging, which indicates moisture has not bothered them.

 

LLoyd

Where's a good source for storage? And would I need silica gels or anything?

[lloyd]

Eh... the chemical manufacturers/repackagers usually DO put silica gel baggies in any drum of material that is moisture sensitive.

 

Meow, a lot of plastics companies (and some 'surplus goods sellers' on the web) sell HEAVY HDPE containers suitable for storage of moisture-sensitive materials.

 

In addition to silica gel baggies, there are also oxygen scavenger bags that serve to protect easily damaged metal powders, etc. You also find them in bags of beef jerky! <G>

 

Lloyd

[Nessalco]

I use ziplock bags, or the supplier's original packaging (whichever is tougher) inside buckets with gamma seal lids, with dessicant packs for the moisture sensitive stuff. So far, so good.

 

Kevin

[MadMat]

what about good old fashion glass jars? I've seen lab chemicals stored in them for years. They mostly have a plastic screw-on cap with a nalgene seal. when I was playing around with static electricity generators (lightning bolt generators!) Pyrex glass was the choice for leyden jars and the like because of its highly non-hygroscopic nature (yes even plate glass can be ever so slightly hygroscopic).

Edited May 30, 2016 by MadMat

[lloyd]

Glass is perfect in a relatively controlled, limited-dispensing environment.

 

It has certain deficits when used in a frequently-handled, high-volume enterprise.

 

I keep things in glass of which I will dispense a few ounces once or twice a year.

 

I keep things in more - um - 'flexible' containers if I will dispense pounds a week, and often.

 

LLoyd

[MadMat]

I guess glass would have two distinct problems with frequently (mis)handled containers. 1. weight 2. the tendency to shatter on impact.

[schroedinger]

Meow for big ammounts, like you will need of KNO3 use Gamma Seal buckets or similar wide mouth containers. You can also look for army surplus water cans (the plastic type, with a wide opening), they can be gotten ffor just a couple bucks.

 

For smaller ammounts, use .5 - 2 L HDPE labratory cans. They pop up at ebay every here and then for cheap. Just buy 40 of them and you are set. But buying a big ammount of the same type container, makes storage much easier.

 

For strontium and sodium nitrate an airtight container is advisable.

 

For silica gel, just put a pack in every container and you are fine, if it doesn't help itt also doesn't hurt and don't worry about the degradation of the metalls 5 they will store fine for 5 years without to much care.

[OldMarine]

If you can find them, swimming pool chlorine buckets are great for storing KN03 (after thorough washing). The 7 gallon ones will almost hold a 50 lb bag and have airtight screw on lids.

[SmokinJoe]

It may save you some effort to learn which of your chemicals are hygroscopic and only make efforts to keep them dry. In my case 9/10 are not hygroscopic, have been stored in a garage for 4 years and are still good (and I live in a hot and humid climate). I'll warn that some of the literature/blogs are in conflict, and for those I've performed my own testing. I suggest a high accuracy scale for this work. For safety (and if fits my project) I don't work with some chemicals on the same bench at the same time, and I avoid dry mixing as much as possible. My 2 cents.

[braddsn]

Meow, as far as hazardous chems... I make fireworks in bulk and the only chems that I have that would even slightly worry me are Barium Nitrate and Antimony Trisulfide. BUT..... with that being said, I do ALL of my pyro with a respirator on. When I first started, I only wore it when I worked with the toxic stuff... but quickly realized that breathing in oxidizers and charcoal is just no fun. I figured this out within about 2 days. As for your question about Barium Nitrate being toxic, you would probably have to eat some like ice cream before it would become a 'real' problem. But again, a nice comfortable respirator is about 25 bucks... and will be one of the best investments you will make. As for storage, I use up my chems pretty fast.. but some of them sit for half a year or more. I store all of my chems in the 'Glad' brand food storage containers found at Wal-Mart. They are said to be air-tight. They do a very good job in my opinion. I have yet to have moisture problems and have been using them for a couple years now. I also store my stars in them, as well as my different primes, burst, bp, etc. If I went back in time to when I started pyro and knew what I know now, the first investments I would make would be 1) A respirator 2) A GOOD ball mill, and 3) A good dehydrator. I couldn't go without any of those 3 things. The rest you can collect over time. I went through 3 ball mills before I finally landed on my big one that i have now (Ned Gorski's design) and looking back could have saved a fortune if I would have STARTED with this one. Good luck and be safe!

[MrB]

with that being said, I do ALL of my pyro with a respirator on. When I first started, I only wore it when I worked with the toxic stuff... but quickly realized that breathing in oxidizers and charcoal is just no fun.

 

I'm a strong advocate for respirator, and sealing eye-protection. Ideally one of those overpressure face-masks, to be honest, but who of us actually have sanitized air-supplies, and would stand working connected to a hose for hours on end?

 

Anything dusty shouldn't be allowed to enter the respiratory system, or your eyes. Most of what makes it in to your lungs wont be getting back out again, ever, and "hard" particles might scratch the cornea and degrade your eyesight. And since it is fairly simple to avoid both, it's just good practice.

B!