Lift powder

[lloyd]

Yeah, Steven, but he won't learn unless WE teach him. Experimentation - alone - without any guidance often leads to discouraging results.

 

If we want this art to survive, teachers we must be.

 

Lloyd

[OldMarine]

Documentation, Patrick! Documentation....

 

Lloyd <G>

Lloyd, I thought I was going by the book but apparently I was on the wrong page.

[lloyd]

Heh! We all turn two pages at once sometimes, Patrick!

 

Lloyd

[otto]

Yeah, Steven, but he won't learn unless WE teach him. Experimentation - alone - without any guidance often leads to discouraging results.

 

If we want this art to survive, teachers we must be.

 

Lloyd

 

No wonder I love this. It is very much like my "career" in baking. Production folks fancy baking as an art but the control, consistency and duplication is in the science. The fine line between cobbler and craftsman is the attention to details, many seemingly insignificant until you really get into it.

 

I gotta chuckle, Lloyd, when you describe pyrotechnics as "art". I know to many is is that and the end product, done correctly, certainly is. BUT in the end it is all science.

 

If you want to get it right time after time it IS the details that really matter. BTW, I'm still on the learning end of this.....

[lloyd]

"I know to many is is that and the end product, done correctly, certainly is. BUT in the end it is all science."

---------------

I agree with almost all you say, but I must add this -- PURE technicians, no matter how exact, no matter how fastidious, and no matter how attentive to details never produce the kind of fireworks that really ARE art!

 

It takes a disciplined technician to produce the same effect repeatedly. It takes an artist to 'see' the effect in his mind, and create it from scratch!

 

And that's why I love this 'art/science/technology' so much!

 

LLoyd

[otto]

It takes a disciplined technician to produce the same effect repeatedly. It takes an artist to 'see' the effect in his mind, and create it from scratch!

 

And that's why I love this 'art/science/technology' so much!

 

LLoyd

I'm right there with you Lloyd. The thing is unless you really have the science part down any great effect is a happy coincidence that will likely not be duplicated. I like your "art/science/technology" but I'd put the science first and the art last. Not to diminish the art, just recognizing how the art came about.

 

I visited the Dale Chihuly glass exhibit in Seattle this spring. It was at my brides' behest as I have no driving interest in things of that nature. However, I was absolutely enthralled by his work. It was clear he not only understood the nature of glass and color and shape, but knew it well enough to bend it into unbelievable creations. Art.......

 

I can only aspire. Too bad I started so late in life though I guess the "Colonel" made out OK. There is hope (for me I think).....

[starxplor]

Good question, I think it has to do with the solubility of the dextrin in alcohol. Keep in mind that this is not my method for making hot BP, just Skylighters. My method is simple: ball mill Willow or Eastern Red Cedar charcoal, KNO3, sulfur and 1-3% dextrin until airfloat. Add hot water, make a ball and push through 1/4" screen onto kraft paper, dry for a couple hours, push through 1/4" screen a second time, dry and classify into separate mesh sizes.

 

Does the water being hot/warm/roomtemp make that much of a difference? Also, I tend to just use newspaper under the screens as there are many idiots out there that fill our mailbox with their crap we don't want.

 

If you want to get it right time after time it IS the details that really matter. BTW, I'm still on the learning end of this.....

 

Arent we all always learning?

[MadMat]

I always think of pyro work as when art, physics and chemistry collide.

[dagabu]

 

Does the water being hot/warm/roomtemp make that much of a difference? Also, I tend to just use newspaper under the screens as there are many idiots out there that fill our mailbox with their crap we don't want.

 

 

Arent we all always learning?

 

I use kraft because of its strength, even the recycled stuff from Uline is good for that. Also, I like the width and being on a roll. it makes funneling it into a container very easy too. I do reuse the sheets until they no longer work for the task, they burn very well!

[Ozzieamature81]

100% it is art and science! A bit of chemistry and physics don't stop something from being art! Ok so making stars and whistle fuel and blackpowder is all chemistry, anyone can do it given the right products and procedures! YER? But then taking those stars and different comps and some BP and some paper, a pyro then turns these things into art! Either that or a bomb! The art is making these things burn in the manner we choose! Yes making the comps is alot of chemistry, but putting it all together and burning those comps in a controlled way to give the result that the pyro desires is definitely art and the pyro hobby is for artists that are smart! Lol

[Ozzieamature81]

Ok so this is about making lift that works yer? You don't need a ball mill, I have one befor someone jumps in and tells me I need to go buy 1! So I have only been in this hobby for 18months but I'm a quick learner lol, when I first started I heard of this cia method for making blackpowder! I read a few people bag it out and thought what rot! But only having a small rock tumbler it takes a long time to me a decent supply of lift and break powder! So I tried putting double batches in my mill, which made it not work properly, so I have 2kg of cranky bp meal powder that I want to fix, I decide to give this cia method a go! So it involves putting the airflows charcoal kno3 and sulphur into a pot and boiling it with water! Don't skip the rest because it actually worked well! So you put 750g kno3 150g good willow or other charcoal of good quality and 100g sulphur into a saucepan and add 150ml water, it should be a slurry of black that you now simmer on low heat stirring the whole time! Don't add too much water or you loose too much kno3 at the end! So simmer it for 10mins while stirring then get a bucket and put 1l of metho in the bucket! Now get the saucepan with your hot black slurry and dump it into the metho, then pour the whole lot into a piece of cheese cloth and squeeze as much more liquids out as you can, be careful it is hot! Now, after squeezing all the liquid out, open the cloth and use a cheese grater or a 8mesh screen to granulated, put the trays of the granulated powder in the direct sunlight to dry! Do not dry in stainless steel bowls as the sun can make it go whoof! Enjoy your lift, use some different size mesh screens to sort into sizes! I use this method, even tho I have a ball mill and when making batches try to make enough so that you can keep using the same quality powder for a bit to get it dialed in!

[ronmoper76]

I struggled through 10 or 15 shitty batches till i nailed one down right,In my opinion once you get your hands on a hot batch you will be hooked and understand why it's so necessary. In my case,even when i made a substitute "benzolift"it sucked because the base was BP and mine was terrible. You can't shine up a turd in this case.

[Tanker6982]

Good point. This is the one thing I've been studying the hardest. Mainly because it's so expensive to buy this stuff and you really don't know for sure what your getting when you do. I'm new to this all the way around but I'm starting at the basics, an that's powder. So i have read that willow is some what the best to use in terms of being a fast burner. What other woods would you consider for lift and burst powders? Books say some stuff, but I like wisdom better, that's just me!

[myfriendtheenemy]

Good point. This is the one thing I've been studying the hardest. Mainly because it's so expensive to buy this stuff and you really don't know for sure what your getting when you do. I'm new to this all the way around but I'm starting at the basics, an that's powder. So i have read that willow is some what the best to use in terms of being a fast burner. What other woods would you consider for lift and burst powders? Books say some stuff, but I like wisdom better, that's just me!

I've always used pussy willow, and it seems to work just fine. Any softwood like spruce, pine, and fir would work great too. I'm not sure which is the best, but the differences are most likely miniscule.

[BetICouldMake1]

Willow and pine will not make anything close to the same powder. SPF "whitewood" are typically used for making sparky charcoal that's good for stars or rocket fuel. You can make passable BP with it, but it will not compare to better charcoals. Generally speaking it seems fast growing softwoods are preferred. Willow and Paulownia are traditionally considered "the best." Many people use Eastern Red Cedar because it is quite common, at least here in the US, and readily available as pet bedding which is easy to cook into charcoal. There are many woods that will work well. As a beginner I wouldn't get too wrapped up chasing the holy grail of the fastest black powder. Start with a known quality charcoal, purchased or cooked yourself, and focus on getting your mixing (and/or milling) and granulating process dialed in.

 

Oh, and take post #36 above and strike it from memory. I dream of a day when people will stop claiming the CIA method is the best way to make BP. It's just silly.

 

Here is some testing that could give you a starting point for playing with different charcoals should you care to.

[Mumbles]

Just to clarify, there is a difference between softwood and soft wood. Softwood trees are trees that produce "naked" seeds (aka non-covered) and generally are needle bearing trees. They tend to be better for sparks and long hanging tails due to the presence of sap and other organics. There are exceptions of course, and I'm sure there are varieties that work well for BP. You'd probably want to look for relatively clean, non-sappy varieties. As a whole, they're not the best though. The opposite of this are hardwoods. These are trees that produce covered seeds (think acorns, whirlybird things from maples, etc), and generally are leaf bearing.

 

Soft wood on the other hand is more a description of the properties of the wood itself, and has no bearing on how it grows or reproduces or produces leaves. Hardwoods are not always hard.

 

Many of the highly touted BP charcoal varieties are soft hardwoods. Hardwoods tend to have cleaner wood, and the softer nature produces less dense charcoal and is probably ground up more effectively or has a more advantageous charcoal pore structure.

[Arthur]

Technically Balsa wood is a hardwood as defined by grain size and seed type, but we all know it's so soft it needs gentle handling and it makes really ace fast powder.

 

Added;

For many years willow charcoal has been regarded as superior for BP in the UK and Maple charcoal in the USA. Proper BP factories will likely use one of these charcoals probably selected for what is locally available, and their faster and slower batches may be mixed to produce a good and highly standardised product every time.

For people without access to either of these charcoals, other woods can be made to work, things like demolition pine can be cheap and easily available, BUT usually these will require a good milling/incorporating process.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Arthur

[Uarbor]

I am currently Milling up a batch using black Birch branches. Everyday I trim a branch strip off the bark and use it to make tea for my wife and I that we drink before we go to bed. I have a very large bag of nice dry branches from 1 inch 2 inch and a quarter with the bark stripped off and dried. I have heard some people mentioned it is very good but it is very hard to find anyone who has used it. The charcoal turned out perfect. Once the powder is granulated I will do a comparison burn with my old powder. If this is not Superior Powder than I am going to do a batch with red maple which I have an unlimited supply of. Also I have a lot of tulip poplar which is related to Willow. I'd rather use the birch though since I'm already processing it on a daily basis LOL Edited June 8, 2021 by Uarbor

[Arthur]

Most woods give about 10% of their wet weight as charcoal, or if dried out then they give about 25% of the dry weight as charcoal. -Saves cooking fuel to dry/season the wood before charcoaling it.

[MadMat]

I use both willow and cedar for my charcoal. I have done numerous baseball tests to compare the difference between willow and cedar and found the flight times close enough to be within the margin of error of my testing method. BTW black willow is the traditional species of willow used for BP charcoal. I happen to be lucky enough to have a bunch of them growing around a pond on the edge of my farm (black willow commonly grows around ponds, streams etc.)

[ronmoper76]

I use both willow and cedar for my charcoal. I have done numerous baseball tests to compare the difference between willow and cedar and found the flight times close enough to be within the margin of error of my testing method. BTW black willow is the traditional species of willow used for BP charcoal. I happen to be lucky enough to have a bunch of them growing around a pond on the edge of my farm (black willow commonly grows around ponds, streams etc.)

I just ordered 5lbs of paulownia charcoal and the next day got the idea to go hunt for one of these trees in the wild. I found literally hundreds of them in no time at all. I got them growing across the road and all along the river. Huge trees,small trees,saplings everywhere...I really wanna get this cooker built and try this now,tlud or retort i have yet to decide but i'm kinda excited because most of these areas aren't private property and readily available.

[Uarbor]

Well I did the testing on the Birch charcoal and it comes in at about the same speed pretty much as my maple charcoal. It does however have one redeeming quality it makes excellent Sparks.

 

https://youtu.be/mUOxfk4ZX7M

[loopdee]

Hello . I am new here. I was wondering if I could use sulfurless bp (in the form of just KNO3 and homemade charcoal) in order to lift a shell? Any replies are helpful. Thanks!

[Arthur]

Assuming that it's properly made sulphurless BP of good speed then it will work. HOWEVER before changing lift powder any time TEST it with a shell or two to see whether you get a good lift height before the break.

 

Tests are best done in a safe (remote) place with remote firing (long visco or electrically).

 

Judging by the fire status in the western USA you need to be certain of the suitability of your proposed test site.

[SeaMonkey]

Very good advice Arthur.

 

Sulfurless Black Powder which is made with only Potassium Nitrate and Charcoal works well in firearms.

 

Because it has no Sulfur it is more difficult to ignite than Ordinary Black Powder.

 

Like Smokeless Powder, Sulfurless Black Powder requires substantial confinement and pressure buildup during combustion in order to propel a projectile with high velocity and force.

 

If the pressure doesn't buildup sufficiently during combustion it burns very slowly similar to Smokeless Powder under that condition.

 

Sulfurless Powder was popular for a short time just prior to the development of Smokeless Powder because it produces much less smoke than Ordinary Black Powder from firearms.

 

Sulfurless Powder is used by some as a Rocket Propellent. It is less likely to CATO or URD than Ordinary Black Powder in a Rocket.

Edited July 27, 2021 by SeaMonkey