Whistling rockets

[insutama]

I just ordered some potassium benzoate and im wondering with kclo4 and potassium benzoate can i make a whistle fuel that will make the whisle sound ? i was told that not all whistle mix would make the whistle sound.

[Rocketier]

Hey dude there is a shitload on informatie about this on the topics. Did you look for that!?

 

And yes you can make whisling whislemix with Potbenz KClO4.

 

76% KClO4 23%Kbenz 1%catalist (CuOCl, red iron oxid, and loads more) all with different whistle or boost effect. And 2% white vasiline. There are different ways to put the mix together but remember that the mixture is very explosive and sensitive.

Read Creagans catalist test

 

The methode I use is put the Kbenz, catalist and vasiline in a coffegrinder. Mix till it's nice fluffy.

Then put the mix in a bowl and mix in the KClO4 mix this with a silicon spoon frictionfree and sparkless. Wear cotton clothes. Put the mix tru a sieve so that no white KClO4 is visible anymore.

This mixture is to be pressed only. Never ram or hit it. When well pressed in a tube and lit it will whistle. Smaller tubes high whistle tone. bigger tubes deeper tone. Read al lot before you go to make the stuff. It is allways to be handled with respect.

 

Never ever mix all the stuff in the grinder together if you don't want to be in the news.

 

There is another way with mixing everything with thinner but I dislike this.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Rocketier

[insutama]

Sorry im not sure where this information is thats why i asked if i had known i would have just gone there because that would be much easyer than writing a post and asking.

 

I was under the impression that whistle mix was used as a burst charge and not for actually making the whistle sound but thats why i asked on here anyway i dont have a press so i wont be able to make them anyway at the moment.

[mikeee]

Firesmithtools.com has several tutorials on his site that shows the solvent method for mixing the fuel.

The potassium Benz fuels tend to be a little sticky after they dry, you will need to clean the rammers

in between each increment of fuel being pressed or you run the risk of plugging fuel in your rammers.

A drill bit smaller then your rammer hole works nice to clean the fuel that fills up in your rammers.

You will also need to polish and wax your spindle fairly often when using Potassium Benz fuels.

Sodium Benz fuels tend to be less sticky then the Potassium Benz fuels.

You also want your Benzoate fuels finely milled, the finer the mesh the better quality fuel will result.

Waxing your tubes also helps make reliable whistle motors, this helps prevent cato's some whistle fuels

will put you right at the limit of the tubes strength. I have had better luck pressing whistle motors to higher

pressures to prevent cato's also. 8000-9000 psi.

[Rocketier]

Pressing smaller motors can be done by a simple arbour press. I build a frame with an arbour press on.

But I told you it's possible to make whistle with Kbenz. That was your initial question. But when you are not familiar with whistle it's for me a matter of safety to supply full information and warnings.

 

I really do not agree on the high pressure mentioned on a lot of forums. You can only pack fuels to a max density. Higher pressure only stress out the tubings. Important is the fact that sleeving the tubes, while pressing, is done proper. I know that there are pyro's even calculating diffent pressures for each increment. When the tube is supported well so it's not deformed by pressing it's okay. Press till packed. I use an arbour for rockets under 16mm. Above that I use a frame press with a hydrolic pump which can be adjusted on the pressure. For this press I press my 22mm id rockets with 900Kg on a 45mm piston. This symbools to be 3375psi on the 22mm. So way below what's been told.

 

An xls file is attached with a calculator for the frame press.

calc.xlsx

Edited June 13, 2015 by Rocketier

[coogan1997]

Just curious, as i am also very interested in making whistles soon. Using a 1 ton arbor press, what is the the largest size whistle motor that could be pressed in such a setup? 1/2" 4oz?

Edited June 13, 2015 by coogan1997

[Rocketier]

The press I use is a 500Kg press and I press as I said in previous post till id 16mm.
The highed of the press to the bottum will be your thrill.

 

As you can see on the picture I build it on a higher frame to create distance.

 

sideview attached.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Rocketier

[Mumbles]

Most arbor presses will be limited by the height of the tube + tooling or diameter they can handle before they're limited by force able to be applied.

 

If you want information, have you tried this new website called google.com? It's pretty useful. You can even use it to search this website. For instance, here's 92 mentions of "potassium benzoate whistle"

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=potassium+benzoate+whistle+site:www.amateurpyro.com

 

Mikeee, my experience has been opposite of yours with regard to sodium vs. potassium benzoate. Granted I don't have nearly as much experience as you probably do. The potassium based compositions are almost always less sticky and waxy.

[mikeee]

Mumbles,

 

I wish it were true I like the sound a Potassium Benz produces compared to Sodium Benz.

Not sure why your results would be different unless it has to do with differences in chemicals etc.

Anymore it does not matter between the fuel types if you wax your tubes you have to clean your

rammers quite often compared to ramming un-waxed tubes.

 

I also use different types of solvents over the years and there are differences with the fuel after it dries.

Some people use vaseline, others use mineral oil in their fuels.

And then there are multiple types of catalysts used in the fuels.

So there are multiple possibilities in the final product we all end up with.

 

What chemicals and method do you use for a non-sticky POT-Benz fuel?

[coogan1997]

Most arbor presses will be limited by the height of the tube + tooling or diameter they can handle before they're limited by force able to be applied.

 

Mumbles, If height wasn't an issue would it be possible to adequately press 1lb whistle rockets on a 1 ton arbor press?

[Mumbles]

I would be wary of that. If you'd be okay with only applying ca. 4500psi on the composition it would be fine. I'm out of the loop with recent developments in tube waxing and other experiments, but that still seems low to me. You might be able to get away with it for BP however.

 

From a pressure standpoint, a 5/8" whistle rocket would be about as high as I would go. 2000lb of force is ~6500psi. With a cheater bar, you can probably get up higher.

[coogan1997]

The press I use is a 500Kg press and I press as I said in previous post till id 16mm.

 

Wait, so you press your 5/8" whistles at only 3500psi on the comp? seems rather low

[ddewees]

Pressing smaller motors can be done by a simple arbour press. I build a frame with an arbour press on.

But I told you it's possible to make whistle with Kbenz. That was your initial question. But when you are not familiar with whistle it's for me a matter of safety to supply full information and warnings.

 

I really do not agree on the high pressure mentioned on a lot of forums. You can only pack fuels to a max density. Higher pressure only stress out the tubings. Important is the fact that sleeving the tubes, while pressing, is done proper. I know that there are pyro's even calculating diffent pressures for each increment. When the tube is supported well so it's not deformed by pressing it's okay. Press till packed. I use an arbour for rockets under 16mm. Above that I use a frame press with a hydrolic pump which can be adjusted on the pressure. For this press I press my 22mm id rockets with 900Kg on a 45mm piston. This symbools to be 3375psi on the 22mm. So way below what's been told.

 

An xls file is attached with a calculator for the frame press.

nonsense...

 

I've seen the difference with rockets pressed at 7000psi vs. 9000psi and even 10,000+.

 

"Press till packed" isn't good enough... for all propellants.

[insutama]

When using whistle mix for a booster in shells just mixing kclo4 and pbenz is The norm right? 70:30 I'm almost positive it is but just wanna make sure before I mix up a batch

 

Disregard I found the info I was looking for so for anyone else wondering for boosters this whistle mix 70:30

kclo4:pbenz works fine

Edited June 23, 2015 by insutama

[mikeee]

Whistle motors that are not pressed to sufficient levels on the fuel grain run a higher risk of cato's.

On most motor tubes you will need to use a tube support while pressing the fuel to prevent rupturing

the cardboard tubes. You also need to use high quality tubes to prevent the tubes from splitting after

removing them from the tube support. High Energy Whistle Fuels made properly will destroy average

quality tubes, waxing the insides of the tubes also helps prevent a flame path under pressure from

moving up the inside wall of the tube causing cato's which is common when using high energy fuels.

To make the high energy fuels the benzoate must be finely milled and the perchlorate must also be

higher quality finely milled. Freshly pressed motors are usually more reliable, if you store these motors

for extend periods of time they run the risk of absorbing moisture in the fuel grain and cracking. Any

cracks or flaws in the fuel grain will result in a cato, the higher the pressure on the fuel grain the better

consolidation of the solid fuel grain which will provide a higher degree of reliability for the motor.

[Rocketier]

nonsense...

 

I've seen the difference with rockets pressed at 7000psi vs. 9000psi and even 10,000+.

 

"Press till packed" isn't good enough... for all propellants.

You say nonsense..

 

But I say what about the evidence!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drzIECzXNCo

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiNRjlb6vgU

Edited June 24, 2015 by Rocketier

[ddewees]

Cgi

[mikeee]

Rocketier,

 

If what you say is true, what are you using for motor tubes? The motor tube is the weak component when using high energy fuels.

How much pressure are you actually putting on the fuel grain while pressing?

If the tube is unable to support the pressure created by the combustion of the fuel grain a cato will occur.

So with a strong enough tube you could press whistle motors at "lower" pressures.

The other variable is the fuel, hot whistle fuel has the same energy potential as regular flash powder.

Whistle fuel can be produced with lower energy output levels by adjusting formula ratios and additives.

Commercial grade benzoate that is un-milled will produce low energy fuel compared to finely milled benzoates.

 

I don't want to blow smoke up anyone's rocket nozzle, but someone trying to make whistle motors for the first time

will run into problems not using proper levels of fuel grain consolidation. Until they get their fuel dialed in the process

for making and tuning the energy level for the tooling and the quality of tubes will take trials and testing for each batch of fuel if you change any of the materials involved.

Edited June 24, 2015 by mikeee

[Mumbles]

Mikeee, I think the key phrase here is "high energy fuels". When you're using something more pedestrian, you can get by with lower pressures, as Rocketier just demonstrated.

[Rocketier]

Cgi

Computer generated image my ar......e. ! Live footage dude.

 

Fuel is KClO4 76%, C₇H₅KO₂.23%(Kbenz), CuOCl 1%, +2% vaseline. The quality is pyrograde. I will make a small video tut how I make the fuel.

 

The spindle length is tuned to max performance. Important is that there is a minimum of 1,5 x the tube id as delay/whistlepart. If less the head will blow out.

What causes cato's is the fact that there are cracks or gaps in the fuel. If your first "rammer" has an angle on the base you press your fuel sideways which stresses the tube.

This can expand the tube. When you press your increments it's also important that your press them al at the same pressure. This to prevent previous increment to come "loose" in the tube creating air pockets.

 

 

The 22mm id I press with 3372psi tube is hostalite pipe shatterproof.

The 16mm id I press with 3540psi tube is hostalite pipe shatterproof with inside coating (kind of wax).

 

Tubes are well supported in an aluminium supportframe showed with tubes in attachement.

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/imag0088.jpg

[Rocketier]

Mikeee, I think the key phrase here is "high energy fuels". When you're using something more pedestrian, you can get by with lower pressures, as Rocketier just demonstrated.

The rockets where not shot at close distance of people Mumbles. I am not a fool.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Rocketier

[mikeee]

Most pyro's in this country are using cardboard tubes to minimize debris left behind from spent motors.

Using the hostalite pipe would allow pressing fuel grains at lower pressures since the rocket tube would

be far stronger and more reliable than a conventional Pyro rocket cardboard tube. Cardboard rocket tubes

will biodegrade in a year or two, the shatterproof pvc pipe will take many decades to biodegrade and will

become an issue with tree huggers if too many are left behind on the ground. Many cities, counties, states

and countries are outlawing fireworks items for various reasons. That is something we all need to consider

if we want our children to have the same freedoms with fireworks as we have today.

[Mumbles]

I didn't mean pedestrian in the sense of near people. I meant it in a whistle rocket of average power way. Maybe I'm underestimating the rockets based on the video, but something of top performance power would have taken those relatively light headings to orbit.

[Rocketier]

@Mikeee I agry on the environmentle part. I said before that most Rockets are recovered. Most commercial shitty rockets do have motors with plastic tubing inside.

 

@Mumbles sorry it's a mis interpretation. Iám a dutchman try to frazeout some English. With the rockets in the video of 22mm I was experimenting with differend loads. Some shot way to high. The one with the 150 grams Nitrateflasheader went up around 450Meters. I counted the frames of the video and sound delay. I expect the rockets can easely lift 6" Ballheaders.

 

Whistle is indeed very powerful. I shot a 44mm id whistle motor with a 10" ballshell header to about 400 meters. Hahahaha that's amazing powerfull. That one was pressed with 1600Kg on the spindle. That's only 1450psi....... It was rockhard. It had a load of 700gram fuel in the motor.

 

I found some footage of the first 44mm rocket. It had a guineapig shell on top that was about 7 inch. This one went into orbit.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Rocketier

[ddewees]

I got lost somewhere...

 

Is he using pvc pipe for his motors?