Red iron oxide instead of sulfur = slower BP?

[Ralph]

I made two green mixes since night. THe one with the sulfur burnt slower than the one with 75/25/0

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/2593/img0090q.th.jpg

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/1369/img0089.th.jpg

^^^ pic of the one with sulfur

i dont have pic of the other, night caught me

your clearly not mixing it well and by the sounds of it your sulfur isnt fine enough

[donperry]

But It's so fine i can hardly see a grain of particle. when it dries it puffs up when i sneezed on it, it and the especially charcoal.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7333/img2812large.th.jpg

http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/6339/img2813large.th.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/318/img2814large.th.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1914/img2815large.th.jpg

 

..ok i didn't actually sneeze buy you get the picha

Edited March 12, 2011 by donperry

[Guest no6]

Not only is it the Foundation of Pyro, but once you made good high quality BP it will give you confidence in your abilities to create and build.

Before long you'll be making quality shells that don't need a stick to get them in the air

 

Be nice. Variety is good.

 

I do love rockets for the smooth take-off and the easy to follow trail.

[donperry]

sulfur Its actually very fine. I think it is just not the right quality since its Flowers of sulfur

check images above for a quick view of the particles

[Peret]

Just my subjective opinion and it's hard to tell from a photo, but that powder doesn't look right. It looks like unfinished mill dust. Did you try wetting it and pushing it through a screen? That generally improves it (and turns it a much darker color).

 

Are you able to smell sulfur? Not everyone can. I've noticed that I can smell sulfur strongly in a green mix, but much less when the powder is thoroughly milled, and hardly at all after wetting and granulating, so I reckon if the powder smells of sulfur it's unfinished.

[donperry]

Dude u are point on. It wasn't ground completely and that mix had too little sulfur.

they were wet and forced through a small strainer but got the result above

 

BUT

 

I was able to make a better mix today but without a mill its difficult. It has to be very very fine in comparison to the ones above.

 

I sent up two rockets <no report>

 

here are the videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTEmNohCNPA&feature=youtube_gdata

[Guest no6]

Well they hauled ass.

[Guest no6]

I've found that adding a header really smooths out their flight. It slows them down enough to make them pleasing to watch.

[zeroberts]

Ok wait, question. I've had this question for a while but I've been absent. But while perusing tonight the subject on this thread drew me in.

 

I make plenty of BP. Averaging in excess of a couple pounds a month, and increasing rapidly.

I read a lot on pyrotechnics. Online and offline. I'm a proud owner of "Fireworks, The Art Science And Technique" by the rightfully lauded Dr. Shimizu.

But I still have this question. First, I understand that red iron oxide possesses catalytic properties. I'm in business, not chemistry. So I dont very intimately understand the full functionality of these catalytic properties so any explanatory responses to that would be much much appreciated. I do strive to understand the principles behind the techniques and formulas so I'm glad to read over any answers there. BUT, the real question here is this:

Is there any benefit to adding red iron oxide to BP? Of course I've read of it being used as a catalyst in rocket fuels and primers. But I want to know what the effect or benefit is in BP. And if it is recommendable to add red iron oxide, in what percentage relative to the composition?

I didnt feel like digging around too much on this one because figured I'm a member of a very supportive community who could answer that question. So here I am. Thoughts?

[MadMax]

Zeroberts,

 

A catalyst is only present in a composition in tiny amounts and remains unchanged after the reaction has taken place. It can lower or raise the reaction rate depending on whether it is a negative or positive catalyst. In the case of iron oxide, it is a catalyst that promotes the release of oxygen by the potassium nitrate.

 

My understanding is that the mechanism behind this is the transition metal oxide acts as a sort of oxygen transport system facilitating the oxidization of flammable material. This ultimately lowers the amount of input energy in the reaction thus speeding it up.

 

As a general rule transition metal oxides do tend to make good combustion catalysts.

 

The periodic table can be arranged to show the periodic nature of the oxidation states per element. A higher number of oxidation states will generally indicate good catalytic properties.

 

http://www.gpuri.com...s/269/26928.png

 

To answer your question, yes I believe it can be put in BP but really you don't need it. The best way to boost the performance of BP is to ensure that it is milled to an extremely fine powder which is very well mixed.

 

Hope this helps

Edited April 25, 2011 by MadMax

[pyrohacker]

Hey this is exactly my problem. Don't have access to Sulfur in my location and instead I substitute it as follows: KNO3 75%, Charcoal 15%, Red Iron Oxide 10% in place of Sulfur. But I noticed it's slow for lifting shells. Any ideas in the formula?

[Mumbles]

I'm not trying to be mean, but have you read this thread? The first page pretty clearly addresses the formula and likely issues you're having. Namely that iron oxide is a catalyst and not a fuel at all.

[OldMarine]

Where do you live that you can buy nitrates but not sulfur? Most countries I've visited have it in the drug stores. Strange.

[pyrohacker]

The situation is:

 

Ran out of sulfur but have potassium nitrate, charcoal and iron oxide .

 

One solution is:

 

79 potassium nitrate

20 charcoal

01 iron oxide

 

At least this is a starting point . Try it and see if I'm right .

 

WSM

I tried your formula but unfortunately it does not work well, doesn't lift the mini shell out of the tube. Mine works much better because it lift the mini shell a few meters in the air. The difference was very noticeable. I made the test for each formula twice and the results were the same. My formula is KNO3 @74%, Charcoal @15%, Iron Oxide @10% and Dextrin @5%. Try it and you'll notice the results as I did.

Edited December 27, 2016 by pyrohacker

[pyrohacker]

Where do you live that you can buy nitrates but not sulfur? Most countries I've visited have it in the drug stores. Strange.

Yeap but not in here man. It is forbidden unless you got a license for explosives or else, precisely because it's used mainly to make BP. The law is the law.

[pyrohacker]

I tried your formula but unfortunately it does not work well, doesn't lift the mini shell out of the tube. Mine works much better because it lift the mini shell a few meters in the air. The difference was very noticeable. I made the test for each formula twice and the results were the same. My formula is KNO3 @75%, Charcoal @15%, Iron Oxide @10% and Dextrin @5%. Try it and you'll notice the results as I did.

[taiwanluthiers]

Iron oxide isn't a good choice for a catalyst unless it's for a much hotter composition like APCP. BP doesn't burn that hot.

 

First of all iron oxide doesn't exactly burn at lower temperature. Heat it up and all it will do is turn into black iron oxide, whereas sulfur can burn on its own.

 

It's totally different compared to sulfur for the purpose of black powder.

 

If you have sulfur in your bp and it burns slowly, first suspect your charcoal (it matters a lot, it can go from very slow smoky mix all the way to really explosively fast mix) then your mixing and preparation technique.

 

Sulfur is used for agriculture, pest control, etc. so it is weird that you can't have sulfur without an explosive license. If you can get potassium nitrate you can get sulfur because potassium nitrate is more likely to be regulated than sulfur. Sulfur is also found in nature.

Edited January 21, 2017 by taiwanluthiers

[pyrohacker]

Iron oxide isn't a good choice for a catalyst unless it's for a much hotter composition like APCP. BP doesn't burn that hot.

 

First of all iron oxide doesn't exactly burn at lower temperature. Heat it up and all it will do is turn into black iron oxide, whereas sulfur can burn on its own.

 

It's totally different compared to sulfur for the purpose of black powder.

 

If you have sulfur in your bp and it burns slowly, first suspect your charcoal (it matters a lot, it can go from very slow smoky mix all the way to really explosively fast mix) then your mixing and preparation technique.

 

Sulfur is used for agriculture, pest control, etc. so it is weird that you can't have sulfur without an explosive license. If you can get potassium nitrate you can get sulfur because potassium nitrate is more likely to be regulated than sulfur. Sulfur is also found in nature.

I simply can't get some sulfur. It's not available here on a 99% purity. Every single product that has it is in a very low % not suitable for pyro use. If you stated what just wrote then tell me what should I use instead of Sulfur as a substitute of it for making BP? What's your solution for it?

[NeighborJ]

Oxidizers have alternative replacements, fuels have alternative replacements but sulfer is one ingredient which does not have a readily available replacement and is integrally necessary for proper performance. If i was in charge of a government agency hell bent on eliminating all forms of pyro and illegal firearms then sulfer would be at the very top of my controlled substance list.

Yet it doesnt need to be the end of the world, many countrys use sulferless powders to make rockets, girandolas and a host of other pyro devices, none of which contain sulfer. It wouldnt be the end of the world but it would sure be a different world without sulfer.

[OldMarine]

About half of the wells drilled here hit sulfur water. You could precipitate enough in a molasses vacuum pan in a day to last quite a while but you'd need to remove the dissolved limestone from it somehow.

[MrB]

Rehydrate, and use CO2 to dissolve the calcium deposits, the sulfur shouldn't dissolve again? (I think it shouldn't.)

B!

[drtoivowillmann]

Drear Friend:

 

Do you know the equation of Chevrevil?

2xKNO₃ + S + 3xC = K₂S + N₂ + 3xCO₂

This is a very simplified reaction equation for Black Powder, just idealized and does not represent real reaction findings. In reality there are a couple of reactions, during Black Powder burning, and they make a complete mess.

Nevertheless the simple Chevrevil formula seems to represent the energy producing "engine" of Black Powder.

 

In this formula sulphur helps to liberate oxygen from the Potassium Nitrate. So you cannot replace sulphur in Black Powder by anything.

All Black Powders without sulphur must be somehow weaker: either slower or with less energy output.

In this form sulphur works only with Potassium Nitrate, but not with Sodium Nitrate or Barium Nitrate, for thermodynamic reasons. Buut sthis would got too far here.

 

Yours truly: Toivo

[pyroSHVRK]

So i individually milled my kno3 with some chrome steel balls. The balls ended rusting and turning my kno3 an orange tint. Im guessing this was from the rust. I ended up using it to make some BP and the results came out faster than my previous batches. Could this be from the rust contamination in my kno3? Or would this speed just be from now having ball milled ingredients?

 

Thanks =]

[pyroSHVRK]

I simply can't get some sulfur. It's not available here on a 99% purity. Every single product that has it is in a very low % not suitable for pyro use. If you stated what just wrote then tell me what should I use instead of Sulfur as a substitute of it for making BP? What's your solution for it?

[Richtee]

So i individually milled my kno3 with some chrome steel balls. The balls ended rusting and turning my kno3 an orange tint. Im guessing this was from the rust. I ended up using it to make some BP and the results came out faster than my previous batches. Could this be from the rust contamination in my kno3? Or would this speed just be from now having ball milled ingredients?

 

Thanks =]

Likely the ball milling. and all nitrates are corrosive. Get some lead balls. And then mill it all together. You’ll be impressed. this is not my best but... was pressed dry- no water alcohol addition I usually use. Still made a good puck but..I think the moisture helps.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Richtee