taiwanluthiers Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 It's not that simple. Barium chlorate has higher solubility than potassium chlorate so you can't do it directly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium_chlorate Here it says you must first make ammonium chlorate from potassium chlorate (in solution), then convert that into barium chlorate. I don't think this step is very safe at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Another option is: www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/campus/5361/chlorate/barium.html WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) We ought to try the potassium chlorate method before we write off the process. WSM Edited December 4, 2015 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Okay, but I remember not having success with these methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Okay, but I remember not having success with these methods.I suppose success will depend on the temperature and concentration of the starting solution. Let's investigate further before we give up on the potassium salt as a starting point. WSM Edited December 5, 2015 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 I suspect the reason industry makes barium chlorate from sodium chlorate is the relative solubilities. If we prepare to do the same in the same way as industry (and be mindful of fully removing the sodium contamination) we should be able to make a pure product. Most amateurs don't take the proper steps to do a thorough job of purifying their products. Those that do will make superior materials. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Given how explosive calcium chlorate is, I'm not sure that magnesium chlorate would be safe at all either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Given how explosive calcium chlorate is, I'm not sure that magnesium chlorate would be safe at all either. I agree. Industry (in making sodium chlorate), treats their starting material (NaCl salt/brine) with sodium hydroxide and sodium carbonate (which creates a flocculent precipitate of the unwanted ions) and removes magnesium and calcium contaminants by filtration. WSM Edited December 5, 2015 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I just submitted part eleven of my series, Homegrown Oxidizers, for publication in the PGI Bulletin. I expect it'll be seen in early 2016. The subject is a concise description of perchlorate purification and a lead-in to making sodium chlorate as feed stock for the sodium perchlorate cells. I plan to set up a cell and try my hand at making sodium chlorate. So the stage is set for sodium chlorate production and research. I'll post my efforts here for others to learn from and follow. My deepest gratitude and thanks to all of you who've encouraged me and supported my research with reference material and suggestions. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Nice. One thing leads to another, i guess.Will there be more blogposts, to follow the new development?B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 (edited) Nice. One thing leads to another, i guess.Will there be more blogposts, to follow the new development?B!I'd like to continue adding the articles as blogs, but I have to overcome holdups on my end (how does that dang thing work again?!!). WSM Edited December 7, 2015 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Will there be more blogposts, to follow the new development?B! My skills in blogging are limited. Mumbles has helped by sending samples of successful blogs with coding, but a few of the next articles contain files that defy my attempts to transport them. Frankly, I've forgotten how I got the first four parts to load, and need to re-learn how to do this. I have seven more articles to add to the blogs I've posted so far, and there are more coming (I'm still learning as I go). Does anyone have a copy of "Blogging for Dummies"? WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dredlohs Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would recomend buying potassium perchlorate rater than making it (of course if you can get it where you live). I get my potassium perchlorate from my friends dad, cause he works in a some place with chemicals, and he can get like 1 kg of potasium perclorate a month. However if i couldnt get it, i would also make it and i would probably use your settup, but i would use 4.2 volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would recomend buying potassium perchlorate rater than making it (of course if you can get it where you live). I get my potassium perchlorate from my friends dad, cause he works in a some place with chemicals, and he can get like 1 kg of potasium perclorate a month. However if i couldnt get it, i would also make it and i would probably use your settup, but i would use 4.2 volts. I live in an area where I can get potassium chlorate or perchlorate, but using it is extremely limited (without drawing too much unwanted attention). I've turned my creative energies to creating these salts on an experimental scale and documenting it here for other pyrotechnists to follow. Not everyone lives in an area where these materials are accessible; so for them, making it may be the only option. The voltage industry typically uses for chlorate production is often listed as 3.6 Vdc. Actually, chlorate can be made using any clean DC source in a range from 2.5 Vdc to 5.5 Vdc (and maybe beyond these bounds), but many folks use a 5 Vdc source because they're so common and easy to come by. Perchlorate manufacturers typically run their systems at higher voltages than chlorate systems for optimum performance. In reality, the voltage isn't as critical as the current, which is the main factor driving the process. As long as the voltage is high enough to drive the oxygen overpotential of the anode, the current determines the rate of oxidizer production in the system. It's funny you should mention using 4.2 volts. That's the actual voltage used in my perchlorate cells when I successfully ran them at between 0.1 Amps to 0.2 Amps per square centimeter of anode surface area. I don't make oxidizers because I need them. I make them because I enjoy the challenge of making them, and making them of high quality. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 WSM, I'm happy to help tinker around and get your formatting, files, etc. to appear properly. When these sort of issues came up last time, I don't think they were particularly difficult, but certainly much more complex than a typical forum post. Barring you or I figuring it out, I'm sure TheSidewinder could knock it out with his morning coffee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Barring you or I figuring it out, I'm sure TheSidewinder could knock it out with his morning coffee. In that case, make sure he works on his laptop, and not anywhere near the server. Would hate to see it filled with spilled coffee... Yes, bad phun. Sorry. I'm just stoked to see more blog-posts on the topic.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 WSM, I'm happy to help tinker around and get your formatting, files, etc. to appear properly. When these sort of issues came up last time, I don't think they were particularly difficult, but certainly much more complex than a typical forum post. Barring you or I figuring it out, I'm sure TheSidewinder could knock it out with his morning coffee. Mumbles, Thanks. I'll take all the help I can get. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) In that case, make sure he works on his laptop, and not anywhere near the server. Would hate to see it filled with spilled coffee...Yes, bad pun. Sorry. I'm just stoked to see more blog-posts on the topic. B! If we work out all the bugs, I've got seven articles ready to add to the blog section. (Merry Christmas) WSM Edited December 22, 2015 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 If we work out all the bugs, I've got seven articles ready to add to the blog section. (Merry Christmas) WSM Perfect timing, since it seams like i'll be spending Christmas all alone. It does make me feel slightly down that i cant come up with a gift for you. I'd give you world peace, and clear skies, if it was at all possible, but you know... reality and all.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Perfect timing, since it seams like i'll be spending Christmas all alone. It does make me feel slightly down that i cant come up with a gift for you. I'd give you world peace, and clear skies, if it was at all possible, but you know... reality and all.B! No problem. I appreciate the thought. I'll see what I can do to fill out the Blogs with photos and diagrams, sized properly and layed out correctly. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) I added part five to the blogs, but the photos and diagrams aren't properly formatted so they're not seamlessly inserted into the document. Okay, it's a work in progress. With Mumbles' and Sidewinder's help we should smooth this out to look more like it does in print. WSM Edited December 23, 2015 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Seems most of the thread and articles are for making chlorate, and it is very easy to do that. What seems to get glossed over is making perchlorate. I tried using the same power supply in making chlorate and ended up with no perchlorate and destroyed anode (lead dioxide stripped a bit but otherwise good, however the platinum was totally destroyed). Perhaps a constant current supply is needed, or I just have no idea what's at work here (I got a reaction, but as to what the reaction is doing I have no idea). In an effort to rule out chloride contaminant I used reagent grade potassium chlorate as a test and the result is the same. I have not tried the same with sodium chlorate, perhaps it may work better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Seems most of the thread and articles are for making chlorate, and it is very easy to do that.Potassium chlorate is the main focus of the first several articles and then the attention shifts to making perchlorate (sodium perchlorate and converting it to potassium perchlorate). Next is producing sodium chlorate as feed stock for perchlorate cells (upcoming articles). This will become clear as more of the articles are added as blogs. WSM Edited December 23, 2015 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) I just posted Part Six in the Blogs. I still need to figure out how to insert the photos and drawings properly so they're full sized instead of thumbnails. The next part starts to discuss perchlorate manufacture. WSM Edited December 24, 2015 by WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I took a quick peek at them yesterday. I think I can fix it. It looks like the difference between parts 5 and 6, and the ones from before, are that the previously the pictures looked like they were hosted in the gallery as opposed to being directly attached. I don't know why it makes such a difference. There's a roundabout way to fix them though. I'll play around a little bit this weekend. Happy holidays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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