Nitrocellulose lacquer

[db5086]

Sure getting sidetracked here folks.

[taiwanluthiers]

I just hate having to get defensive when someone just starts attacking me over stupid stuff.

[Mumbles]

Fine, I will weigh in now under official action as a moderator.

 

Stop dragging threads off topic. How many fucking times do I need to bring this up? While we're at it, stop posting vague statements that you might have maybe read somewhere on the internet once. If you're under any illusion that you can't be banned, lose that thought. You contribute very little of substance here. The reason that kewls and the like seemingly get more lenient treatment is because they might still be steered into the right direction and have a future. You on the other hand seem like a lost cause at times.

 

The other big reason some people choose not to participate in the online forums is to avoid dealing with idiots.

 

Can we please get back to nitrocellulose at a binder and pyrotechnic material?

[MWJ]

So when you buy Smokeless powder, does it say it's double base or single base on the can? Or should we just get shotgun powder?

[Nessalco]

The containers do not specify single or double base.

 

Any powder manufactured by Alliant is double-based. These include Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, and a host of rifle powders.

 

Other manufacturers also make double-base powders (Hodgdon Hi-Skor is an example).

 

Kevin O

[Jakenbake]

Any powder made by IMR is single base. Hodgon powders can go either way. Most powder bases can be found on there manufacturers website.

[ORMDale]

Can you still buy smokeless powder at sporting goods store no questions asked?

 

Yes.

[dagabu]

The legality of ownership remains on the purchasers shoulders in the USA. In my town, the ordinance states that I can have to to 25# combined powders, smokeless or black powder but have to be in a magazine and/or original containers it was purchased in "not to exceed 1# per container".

 

The BATFE allows me to purchase up to 50# of black powder per day, legally.

 

Jon Blackert is a very good source for information on black powder sales as he makes his living doing so.

[Sparx88]

Double base and acetone for me. Woohoo! Like snap crackle and popping into your mornin! With honors =D

 

Hodgdon Longshot double base. I reload 12 Gauge so it was an easy choice.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Sparx88

[ddewees]

I primed a 4" comet in a hurry yesterday, using nc/acetone with bp. I probably added too much acetone and rather than waiting for it to evaporate... I just wrapped some masking tape around the circumference and poured the slurry on top. The following day it appeared dry to the touch, and finished wrapping it up, with it's lift and such.

Today I went and burned off the excess that was dried in the cup... and it burned, but not with it's typical voracity... I'm wondering if it may stay damp because it's well wrapped and it has been quite cold. I had planned to shoot this on Saturday, but didn't want to waste it if it would somehow not light properly, or even go out.

[Differential]

Is offering advice on making NC, for use in lacquers, okay in this forum? I can make it safely, but I know it's HE. If not, I'll just say that it's important to keep the acids in an ice bath, and watch the temperature. If the temperature gets above 50F or it starts releasing brown fumes, drown the reaction in water.

[dagabu]

actually no, nitrocellulose lacquer is not a high explosive. Go ahead and talk at will.

[Mumbles]

The nitrocellulose portion of it however is. He's talking about synthesizing that, not just mixing smokeless powder and acetone.

 

Go ahead. This is always a touchy topic since it falls into both camps. As long as it avoids the intentional detonation side of things you're fine.

[Differential]

Thanks, Mumbles. I did quite a bit of research before attempting it, and found the instructions were all over the place.

 

Recipes commonly call for 1 part cotton by weight, and 15 parts of nitric acid/sulfuric mix. Some say that the mix should be equal volumes of 68% nitric and 98% sulfuric, others say that the ratio should be 1 volume of nitric to 2 volumes of sulfuric. The nitration times vary from minutes to hours. All of them use much more acid than should be required according to stoichiometry.

 

The first recipe I tried was 1 part cotton, 7 parts potassium nitrate, and 7 parts of concentrated sulfuric (all measured by weight). I SLOWLY added the KNO3 to the H2SO4, while mixing and keeping it in the ice bath. This step alone released a lot of heat and nitric oxide fumes. After cooling, I was left with a clear, thick syrup. I mixed in the cotton, while watching the temperature, and let it nitrate for 30 minutes. After completing the nitration, add the mixture to cool water. Wash twice with water, then once with sodium bicarbonate solution, then once more with distilled water. Allow to dry at room temperature - this will take a day or two, depending on where you live.

 

This method will yield high quality cellulose trinitrate, but it is pretty wasteful of the acid. It's hard to mix more cotton in since the acid is so thick.

 

A method I prefer is to use 90% nitric (which I distill from potassium nitrate and sulfuric acid). Mixing the nitric with sulfuric will generate heat and fumes, as with the other method. However, it's much easier to mix in the cotton. I use 1 part cotton, 3 parts 90% nitric, and 3 parts 98% sulfuric (all by weight), and let it nitrate for 15 minutes. Wash and dry, same as before.

 

This is a difficult recipe because of all the safety precautions. Goggles, apron, gloves, are required. A bucket of water to douse yourself in, if you need to, is recommended. A full face shield would be a very good idea. If the reaction doesn't go long enough, or too long, the NC will be poorer quality.

[FlaMtnBkr]

I think the only way I would do it is if I couldn't buy it or if someone had information about stabilizers and ...., well something (NOx?) scavengers so the NC will stay good over time. Not just acid neutralizers.

 

I believe urea is something that can do some of the above. It would be neat if someone has done tests to see what kind of life NC treated with stabilizers compared to no treatment.

[enanthate]

im using NC-prills. Works fine. Don't see the reason to buy pingpongballs, as you are paying for the work they have done on them. NC-prills are much cheaper, it's pretty much free actually.

 

I've been wondering about the smokeless powders you dissolve in acetone to get NC. This gives NC, we all know that, but doesn't it also give a lot of BP in there? So you're mixing plenty BP into the DE-mix.

Is this correct? I have never seen commercial powders myself, so don't know anything at all about them.

If it is true, the interesting question is; Does dragon eggs benefit from BP(or whatever is in that smokeless powder)?

[MrB]

Thanks, Mumbles. I did quite a bit of research before attempting it, and found the instructions were all over the place.

Since we are on the topic. For our purpose, of making NC lacquer, the sodium bicarbonate solution wash, is it really needed? What i mean is, isn't this done to get the acidity under control, and to stabilize the product so that it doesn't break down? Since we are dissolving it in acetone, or some other organic solvent, it should pretty much be sufficient to wash it with water a couple of times extra, put it in one of those "wash your bra" net-bags, and spin it a round for a bit to get rid of as much as possible of the water, and then just put it in the solvent? When the nitrocellulose has dissolved, the acid should have been neutralized as well. Your going to have a slightly higher water content in your NC lacquer, but i wonder if that's going to be a areal issue, were not talking 10's of % i mean.

 

I've been wondering about the smokeless powders you dissolve in acetone to get NC. This gives NC, we all know that, but doesn't it also give a lot of BP in there? So you're mixing plenty BP into the DE-mix.

Is this correct? I have never seen commercial powders myself, so don't know anything at all about them.

If it is true, the interesting question is; Does dragon eggs benefit from BP(or whatever is in that smokeless powder)?

If your talking about the same kind of smokeless powder we got over here, then there is no BP in that stuff. There is a bit of additives in there to control burn-speeds, shelf-life, and such, but nothing that adversely affects performance as NC-lacquer. As far as i know, unless you can get your hands on "real" NC-lacquer, and not the modern day crap they make now, thats the best stuff to use. Well, that, or the pure NC granulate you can buy in some pyro / magic shops. I haven't tried that stuff, but it's supposed to be "the" thing as well, seeing as it's the pure stuff, no filler, no additives.

B!

[dagabu]

Just to further flesh this out, the main ingredient of smokeless powder is nitrocellulose, single or double base. Modern single base powders consist of an ether-alcohol colloid of nitrocellulose while double base powders normally consist of Nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose.

 

The black color is often the product of the graphite used to allow a free flow.

[FlaMtnBkr]

Where are NC prills that are basically free? I would like to pick up a metric ton or two.

 

Smokeless powder has no BP. Most people don't even use BP in BP rifles, but BP substitute like Pyrodex.

 

Most homemade NC never gets completely neutralized. I would spend as much time possible trying to neutralize and then use as quickly as possible.

[taiwanluthiers]

Commercial bp is hard to get... The storage/licensing requirement for the shop is so onerous that most just won't bother selling them. Bp subs have also the advantage that they dont foul as much. There's even bp rifles designed to use smokeless powder (Savage ML10) which means no cleaning between shots to avoid damage to the gun. But as far as I know pyrodex isnt smokeless powder, it is simply a pyrotechnic mix that is different than bp

Edited December 4, 2014 by taiwanluthiers

[Mumbles]

The neutralization and stabilization of NC is especially important if you intend to use it in NC lacquer. It breaks down faster in solution than the solid state.

 

I have done a urea wash/soak, and the product did seem to whiten up a bit and last longer. I never made much at once, so it never got stored all that long either, so I can't really speak toward long term stability. I am pretty good about thorough washing with water and base as well to begin with. It's much harder than you think to truly neutralize all the acid.

 

I would also like to point out that nitration of cellulose is fine and all, but it does not scale well to produce useful quantities. Most people can make 5g or so. Increasing to 50 or 100g even makes things orders of magnitude more complicated and dangerous to do properly and safely.

[enanthate]

Are you talking about the process to make nc lacquer from prills?

Not sure if i get you right, but i usually make 100g at a time, and put the jar on my mill to roll it for 15 minutes. Gives a thick, evenly mixed nc, makes loud de's as hell.

[MrB]

The neutralization and stabilization of NC is especially important if you intend to use it in NC lacquer. It breaks down faster in solution than the solid state.

Weird. I thought the acid would "spend" it self reacting with the acetone, and then simply be done and gone. Anyway, thank you for clarifying.

B!

[Differential]

^{This might be useful: http://dowac.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8344/~/walsroder-solubility}

^{I've seen lacquers for finishing wood with a mix of toluene or xylene added, but apparently they're just added as thinners.}

[insutama]

Will NC made from ping pong balls work for dragon eggs or do i need to use double base smokeless powder also when mixing acetone with the smokeless powder is there a ratio to mix it or do you just dissolve till you get the consistency of ketchup i cant seem to find the answer to this