bprocket Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I'm looking for some input into what I'm doing wrong with my strobe formula. Ammonium Perchlorate 63Black copper oxide 10PVC. 5GE Silicone II. 22 It is mixed dry with 100 mesh screens and the silicone incorporated.I've dried it, riced it, packed it wet. It is just not energetic. Anybody have a suggestion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 What exactly do you mean by energetic? This formula also is dependent upon the silicone caulk as well. #GE5000 is the recommended one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 It's not energetic at all and it makes a huge amount of ash. Sorry about the poor video... Blue GE Silicone ll Strobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bprocket Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 I totally agree. It makes a bunch of ash. The rocket does not have enough energy to get out of its own way. For a fountain this is pretty nice. For a strobe rocket,,,not so good. Anybody have any luck with this formula? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 BP, I an not aware of any strobe rockets that use the strobe fuel for lift, all of the ones I have made use whistle to lift off then the strobe kicks in for the visual effect. How did you make yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bprocket Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Dagabu, I thought for sure I would get some lift out of this thru a nozzle but now that you mention it, and I give it some thought, you're right, not enough power/energy to be used on its own. I'll try a bp core with the strobe mix. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Yeah, don't nozzle the GE ll strobe, WAY too much ash, you need a nozzleless design with whistle for the boost, no way will BP get it high enough to burn off that strobe fuel. Also, the AP will turn to mush if you use BP for the booster. "In contact with potassium nitrate (e.g. in black powder) produces potassium perchlorate and hygroscopic ammonium nitrate; no such reaction with sodium nitrate. Reacts with potassium chlorate, producing unstable, gradually decomposing ammonium chlorate; such combination has to be avoided." You gotta spend some time reading now before you try again, AP really should be kept away from your work area as much as possible, once the AP decomposes it can do so with some energy and violence. "Ammonium chlorate is a very unstable oxidizer and will decompose, sometimes violently, at room temperature. This results from the mixture of the reducing ammonium cation and the oxidizing chlorate anion. Even solutions are known to be unstable. Because of the dangerous nature of this salt it should only be kept in solution when needed, and never be allowed to crystallize." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 While I agree with you on the nozzle and lift factors, I don't think the formation of ammonium nitrate will be as big of a deal. The silicone should seal the AP off quite well from the nitrate in the BP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Perhaps. I was just retelling what I was told by a good dozen of the pros over at the site that passes fire... Perhaps an over reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatknot Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 So glad you brought up the subject...you may not be doing anything wrong; I believe it is the silicone II. In the late 90's and early 2000's I was a fanatic about that formula... made pellets, fountains, rockets... with custom tools. Kinda quit for a while and last year tried to revive the famous blue strobe rocket, to no avail. The GE Silicone II had a different design to the tube, and, the rockets barely left the ground and burned much longer than the original. I have heard to try the bathroom sealant variety but I have not tried this yet. When they worked, they were impressive! Not a lot of lifting power but they went up pretty fast with a helicopter "thup thup thup" sound. I used a slightly extended standard BP spindle with clay nozzle and end plug. They needed to cure a good 5 days minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 So glad you brought up the subject...you may not be doing anything wrong; I believe it is the silicone II. In the late 90's and early 2000's I was a fanatic about that formula... made pellets, fountains, rockets... with custom tools. Kinda quit for a while and last year tried to revive the famous blue strobe rocket, to no avail. The GE Silicone II had a different design to the tube, and, the rockets barely left the ground and burned much longer than the original. I have heard to try the bathroom sealant variety but I have not tried this yet. When they worked, they were impressive! Not a lot of lifting power but they went up pretty fast with a helicopter "thup thup thup" sound. I used a slightly extended standard BP spindle with clay nozzle and end plug. They needed to cure a good 5 days minimum. That would certainly explain the reason why the thrust was so poor. I would love to have the formula for this blue that worked for rockets, it would be a real crowd pleaser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I bet there are better ways to make a strobe with blue color visible as well... just haven't tried it yet. The strobe fuel itself doesn't have to emit a blue color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbon796 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I don't believe there are any "real" variants for the GE silicone blue formula. The same one used for rockets, is also used for stars. If I remember correctly, it was originally made on standard BP rocket tooling. With a nozzle. Edited January 16, 2015 by Carbon796 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaMtnBkr Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Does anyone know if the good silicone had a vinegar smell or an ammonia smell? It wouldn't surprise me if they have changed formulations of the caulk. Knowing what the original was like might help find a suitable replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbon796 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I totally agree. It makes a bunch of ash. The rocket does not have enough energy to get out of its own way. For a fountain this is pretty nice. For a strobe rocket,,,not so good. Anybody have any luck with this formula?How tall is your nozzle ? Also these rockets are noted as not having a lot of thrust, are they not flying or just weak ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Does anyone know if the good silicone had a vinegar smell or an ammonia smell? It wouldn't surprise me if they have changed formulations of the caulk. Knowing what the original was like might help find a suitable replacement. Info from circa 2010 suggests it didnt use acetic acid so no vinegar smell as it cured.link: www.logwell.com/tech/servtips/RTV.html Presumably in response to consumer complaints about odor, the major manufacturers have introduced non-acetic cure silicone products for the consumer market. General Electric Silicone II is the best we have found. Edited January 16, 2015 by Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Soooooo,if we find some good ole stinky silicone,the thrust may increase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 lol, further diggin` reveals it used ammonia. Also, sometime around 2006 GE added "BioSeal" (mildew inhibiter) to the GE-5000 so that might have a bearing. The GE Silicone II XST doesnt contain bioseal so that might be worth a test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Probably not the cheapest place to buy it from but it appears that ASI Food Grade Silicone Sealant has that ammonia smell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatknot Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Sooooo, the caulk formula did change... it did have some odor, definately not acetic (vinegar) like the other silicones of the day. 3/4" ID rockets oscillated at about 3-4Hz. A shaped cylinder of the said rocket formula, like 1/2-3/4" dia, if set on end and lit on top end would produce oscillatory burning all the while throwing off slighly bent discs of ash...really interesting behaviour. Mr. John Steinburg shot a few large versions of these rockets at a Kellner's fireworks demo night, 1999(?), and he had salutes as payloads on his!! A worthwhile cause to bring these back as good as the originals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 To my knowledge GE5000 Silicone II has never used an acetic acid based formula. Silicone I was the acetic acid formula, where as Silicone II produced ammonia and methanol. Maybe it's the additives or some change in base formula as opposed to curing mechanism that changed everything. I've never made it, so I have no idea what it was supposed to burn like. Maybe others with experience could mix up a batch with the current product and confirm it's different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 The ammonia by-product type is Oxime, it reacts with copper and some copper alloys. Another option is the Alkoxy type which produces methanol or methanol/ethanol as a by-product during curing, it doesnt react with copper. As the Oxime type reacts with copper, the Alkoxy may be a better candidate. Havent looked but i bet its the more expensive of the two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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