taiwanluthiers Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I have some agricultural KCl, the reason I get them is because they are very cheap, but the problem is they add this red crap to it, so when I dissolve it the solution is red and the stuff appears to be a little bit oily but insoluble. I filter them but it not only takes a long time, it also eats filter paper. Is there a more efficient way to get this stuff out? I thought about precipitating but the stuff seems waxy, so some of it floats on top and all over the place... if I add a little soap to help settle it could I decant it, and will soap affect the cell condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 If it floats, and is oily, use a trick from the aquarium hobby. Submerge a page of newsprint, and then pull it edge first, straight up. The film clings to the paper. No idea on the soap.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 If it floats on top, go for ebay or your next lab supply and buy a 1l seperating funnel and use that. If you wan't to process very largevolu es, you can make your own seperating funnel from a bin and a tab on the bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leedrill Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 unless there is a better way that my limited knowledge knows of a separatory funnel is the tool for the job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 If there is enough of the wax/oily stuff, to be layering like that, of course. I got (perhaps mistakenly) the impression that we were talking a large volume, with relatively small amounts of junk.If there is crud enough in the top layer to make it impractical to just lift it out, just letting it settle, and siphoning out the layer you want works just as well as a separation funnel. However, it means you need to be able to visually tell where the layer boundaries are. Any container that is somewhat opaque, and preferably has a bottom spout should do just fine. If that isn't available, clear tubing, and siphoning it out works for 1000 gallon steel-tanks. Takes a while, and you need to pay attention when the cutoff point comes.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 If the "red" is in solution filtration will not help. but if there are insoluble contaminants they should sit on a filter paper. See whether your local suppliers can sell you GF-A or GF-B circles. These are glass fibre filter circles and survive many reagents that kill paper, they however do NOT fold in the conventional way (they break!) and must be used flat on a Buchner funnel, and usually with suction. There are of course lots of grades of filter paper and some of the acid hardened papers may well suit your needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 No they are insoluble, and filtration gets most of it out (I get a pink solution rather than red), which after turning them into chlorate I can easily wash them out... I just hate filtering because it takes forever even in a Buchner funnel. But I don't really have a vacuum setup so I just stick a vacuum cleaner into the vac port and suck... it is loud and the vac doesn't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I mentioned this in another thread recently, but have you tried filtering through a pad of celite? It helps to remove fine particulates that would otherwise pass through a filter, or clog the pores. That said, if there is a lot of this stuff even celite will clog if a solid layer of the red stuff gets formed on top of it. You can kind of stir it up to break the sticky layer on top. Otherwise, yeah, it sounds like you need a separatory funnel or perhaps a centrifuge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) celite? Do you mean those dish scrubber thingie? I just boiled a solution and basically added a small amount of dish soap and the stuff precipitated right out after sitting for a while... not sure if the soap will affect anything (or make a frothy mess) but it sure beats filtering. But why do they add the red stuff? Is it to add another hurdle to would be pyro? Edited May 10, 2014 by taiwanluthiers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pex Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I just boil it. And then filter it with some old clotes. That i put on a sieve on top of a large bukket. If you ad enoug layers. It will Come out nice and clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Sorry, I always forget that celite is technically a brand name. Celite, diatomaceous earth, kieselguhr, diatomite, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth As for why they add red stuff, I have no clue. Some KCl, depending on where it's mined, does have iron oxide and clay in it though. It might occur naturally, and just not be removed. For gardening, clay and iron oxide probably don't matter much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) When I industrially needed filter aid I had loads of the remainders from the cutting of filter paper circles and tore them up (or use a blender!). The paper pulp then provided a deep filter that was fast flowing and retentive. We used ashless paper so that we could filter then burn the paper off and weigh the product. Perhaps you could add some KCl (with the red) to K chlorate and K Perc and see whether there is an effect Edited May 11, 2014 by Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Perhaps you could add some KCl (with the red) to K chlorate and K Perc and see whether there is an effect Yes, that is the important question. If the red stuff doesn't affect the process, why bother to filter it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 I guess it's to make sure everything looks clean. The red stuff seems to have no effect and washes off easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Also, why not clean it out. Depending on your cell design the red stuff would just start to accumulate in your cell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 celite? Do you mean those dish scrubber thingie? I just boiled a solution and basically added a small amount of dish soap and the stuff precipitated right out after sitting for a while... not sure if the soap will affect anything (or make a frothy mess) but it sure beats filtering.But why do they add the red stuff? Is it to add another hurdle to would be pyro? Agricultural chemicals are usually mixed as a liquid and sprayed in the fields. Colorants help them see where they've sprayed and helps prevent under spraying or over spraying the area. I've seen industrial operations where their men spray weed killer, dyed green, around their perimeter fences. The liquid dries so fast, it's hard for them to see, so the dye helps them keep track of where they've already put the weed killer and also avoid missing spots. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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