Bottle Rockets

[RobertoDuran121]

I'm looking into rockets and that's probably my favorite type of firework but for now being new and all I want to make simple ones.Can I use R-Candy in bottle rockets?Would it look nearly as good as a BP rocket?I want to make a bunch for next year(4th of July)and want to know what im getting into. Does anyone know how they are made from factorys as in how they mass produce them. As far as I can tell they compress black powder(to slow its burn?)(not sure what grade)into a tube with a nozzle.Then they add a splint of bamboo and trim to balance.I want to make the simple ones that don't have a report but how would you go about adding a report?

 

Thanks for any info...Feed the noob?

Edited July 29, 2013 by RobertoDuran121

[pyrokid]

Rockets are made by compressing black powder into a tube. Sometimes a clay nozzle is also used, but

that isn't always necessary. The compression of the powder is done to prolong and control the burn of it

more than to slow it down.

Here are your sources for rocket tooling, have your checkbook ready:

http://fireworktools.com/

http://www.firesmithtools.com/

http://www.wolterpyrotools.com/

 

Mass production is achieved by using multiple sets of tooling, so that

probably isn't very practical for the hobbiest.

I suggest starting with black powder rockets, as they are easier to get flying than sugar rockets in my experience. Here is something to work toward:

Edited July 29, 2013 by pyrokid

[RobertoDuran121]

Thanks

Nice looking stuff

Edited July 30, 2013 by RobertoDuran121

[mikeee]

Roberto,

 

You could try using the R-candy as a fuel.

Depending on what diameter of rocket you plan on making will determine how you make them.

A larger tube you could pour the r-candy into the tube and stick a waxed skewer stick in the center.

Let the r-candy set-up and remove the skewer stick, a fuse can then be inserted into the core.

Smaller diameter rockets you could roll the r-candy into a pencil sized rod and cut to length.

You would then need to roll your paper on the outside of the fuel.

You will still need a clay nozzle to increase your thrust.

The fuse will also need to be a hot fuse to ignite the r-candy.

[TranslucentDragon]

Well, I recently got started with Pyrotechnics, and the first thing wanted to create was bottle rockets. I ended up choosing Sugar Fuel over BP because Sugar fuel are MUCH easier to make if you don't have the equipment to make BP (ball-mill, charcoal and sulfur), because all you have to do is put KNO3 (saltpeter/potassium nitrate) and sugar into water, and dissolve the water out. Although it is very hard to get Sugar Fuels to fly (you WILL need a nozzle, no exceptions), they are fun to watch and if you screw up a batch just add baking soda and make smoke bombs . Let it be known though that I have no experience with black powder, though, so I can't judge them. Basically, it comes down to "do you have the equipment for BP".

If you decided to make bottle rockets with sugar fuels I use this website: http://www.jacobsroc..._propellant.htm

and if you have any questions feel free to PM me and I'll help any way i can.

[mikeee]

The presto oil cooker is the best cooker to use to make the r-candy.

It has the built in t-stat and the teflon coated cooking surface.

 

[mikeee]

Scott Fintel has a good website and video tutorial on cooking the r-candy and pooring fuel grains.

[RobertoDuran121]

R-Candy was gonna be my first option if I get around to trying it would be preffered if it works,I don't have a Ball mill but I will get one depending on how interested I become in pyrotechnics.Question though,Can you make a R-Candy rocket have a trail effect by adding the chemicals as in BP rockets? I'm loving this community though,unlike most forums on unrelated topics the "New Comers" are not hated on. Edited July 30, 2013 by RobertoDuran121

[yvariro]

Hi

 

If you want adding a trail effect in your motor,it will be a little more dificult since you will have to compress a trail delay above your fuel grain,but it's doable

I've started with rocket candy rocket,and i advice you IMO to make nozleless rocket motors,or end-burner motor with this fuel

If you really want to make pyrotechnics things in the future I would suggest you to buy a 3/4" rocket tooling,you'll make very durable rocket motor,but it's expensive,and you can check how to make one on YouTube

R-Candy is a bit less effective than BP in small and mediums sized rocket motor but you can still get cool result !

 

Good luck !

Edited July 30, 2013 by yvariro

[FlaMtnBkr]

If you want to make smaller 'bottle rockets' I suggest 3/8" ID nozzle-less BP rockets. If you don't want to lift a payload 'effect' then you can probably get away with just hand mixed powder. At this small size you can also roll your own tubes from paper bags from the grocery store, and make your own tooling from wood dowels and a metal rod for the spindle.

 

You can make your own charcoal using 2 empty metal cans using the TLUD method which will probably be better than buying it because you want the hottest charcoal you can get. There are a lot of good woods to use including white pine untreated 2x4 scraps, willow (black willow grows by just about any water including wet drainage ditches), Eastern Red Cedar which can be bought as pet bedding in pet stores (along with pine), etc. Read up on it as there are tons of good wood for charcoal. You can probably even buy KNO3 locally as "stump remover" and sulfur in the garden department to local stores. A small "rocket blender" will make your charcoal and sulfur a fine mixed powder. Also grind the KNO3, but by itself until it is like talc or corn starch. Then screen the 3 together 3 or 4 times and it should be hot enough for a 3/8" nozzle less rocket without a payload, or even a 1 or 2 g report but I would suggest you wait to mess with flash and to use the binary method when you do make that leap.

 

The rocket tooling can be made by taking a wood dowel and drilling a hole in the center to stick a metal rod about 2 3/4" long into. A 1/8" diameter metal rod would probably be a good starting point. Then take a 2x4 and cut off a piece to make a square base, or bigger if that makes it easier for you to hold. Drill a hole that will be a tight fit for the wood dowel and rod and insert the wood dowel so about a 1/4" is sticking above the 2x4. Then drill a hole in another dowel about 2 7/8"-3" deep that is centered and will slide over the metal rod. You probably want to try to use a drill press at the minimum to center the drilling in the dowels. A lathe would be even more accurate. Then put something hard over the end of the dowel so when you hammer it, it helps protect it from deforming. A 3/8" end cap for copper tubing or PVC would be good. Then make another smaller wood dowel about 2" long with no hole for ramming BP above the metal rod. Again, add something hard to protect the end from deformation. You will then want to use a rubber or leather mallet when ramming motors. Or a plastic dead blow hammer works good as well. You will want to ram them on a hard surface like concrete or a large wood stump.

 

You can then roll your own tubes using kraft paper from the store or even free paper grocery bags. Cut about 3 3/4" strips or even 7.5" strips if you want to cut the tube in half and get 2 motors from one strip. A metal 3/8" rod is best to use as a mandrel for rolling tubes. A wood dowel can be used but you need to put a couple coats of polyurethane lacquer on so that it is water proof and probably lightly sand it so it is nice and smooth. I don't remember how long I made my strips of paper but you want the final tube to be at least 1/8" thick if not 3/16". Take some white glue and mix it about 50:50 with water and brush it on the paper. Then roll your mandrel and roll the paper up on to it until you get to the end. You then want a piece of wood about like a 2x6 that is a foot long. You then roll the paper tube with the wood a couple times which tightens the paper up and gets rid of air bubbles. Then quickly slide the tube off the mandrel and let it sit for a few days. If it is hard to get off you can try waxing the mandrel or using extra glue where the paper starts and touches the mandrel. Another way is to use no glue where it touches the mandrel to help it slide off easier. You just need to try and see what works best for you.

 

These are the basics to get started and everything is on the internet in more detail than I have put here. This is basically to give you an idea of how it is done but will probably take some more information to get started. If there is something you want to know about and you can't find it in a search, ask and I or someone else will try to answer it or point you to where you can find the info. Good luck and have fun!

[RobertoDuran121]

I heard of gummed tape being used to roll tubes,Should it be the reinforced or it does not matter?I'm looking into what to buy and a roll on non reinforced tape is MUCH cheaper than reinforced.Oh and for smaller bottles rockets how long should it be for its diameter?If anyone has a chart or something would be great.

[mikeee]

The non-reinforced will roll a lot more uniform while making a tube.

[pyrokid]

I think ten times the inner diameter is a good rule of thumb for casing length. Variations do occur.

[RobertoDuran121]

So a 3/8 bottle rocket should be 3.75 inches long? That seems to be rather long. Oh and thats great that unreinforced gummed paper can be used.

[Mumbles]

The length of the tube will depend on what kind of rockets you're intending to make. 10x as long as the ID is the standard for core burning BP rockets. To be honest, if you're making your own tooling, you can make them any length you want. If you look at Rich Wolter's website, he lists all the tube lengths that his tooling is made for. Rich is one of the premier tool makers in the hobby.

 

http://www.wolterpyrotools.com/?page=cc_catg&cat=rocket

[Juiceh]

So a 3/8 bottle rocket should be 3.75 inches long? That seems to be rather long. Oh and thats great that unreinforced gummed paper can be used.

Yup, for BP coreburners a standard 1LB .75 inch ID tube is 7.5 inches long, 10x ID.

 

If you guys want nice bottle rocket size tooling, Steve Majdahli makes an awesome 1/4" SBR(Super Bottle Rocket) set. Its basically a Universal\Hybrid spindle just micro. Any motor you can make with the full size Hybrid spindles you can make on this micro spindle. He also makes endburner tooling in 1/4" size.

 

I have both sets, coreburner and endburner. The endburner tooling works really well with extremely fast whistle, no nozzle is used, not sure what the lifting capacity is though. The coreburner tooling using Dan Thames "super" whistle fuel for the whole core can push a 1.75" plastic ball shell full of boom boom juice to a good height.

 

I'm not sure if Steve still makes his kits though. Really nice tools, even comes with the perfect scooper made out of a .22 shell casing!

Edited July 31, 2013 by Juiceh

[FlaMtnBkr]

I think 3.5" is the standard length for a 3/8" BP core burner. I said 3.75 above because I like to trim the ends so they are nice and square and I forgot to mention that. Gummed tape works great as well but isn't free if you are trying to go the cheapest route.

 

A 1/4" bottle rocket tooling would probably be fun and I would assume you can get cheap spiral wound tubes that are strong enough. I haven't played with that size though and 3/8" seem to have plenty of power and go as high as you could want. I would imagine they don't take much longer to make than the 1/4" either. I also cut a tube in half sometimes and make mini whistle rockets which perform pretty nice as well. I just tape on a foot long bamboo skewer and they make a fun 'bottle' rocket.

[oldspark]

Yup, for BP coreburners a standard 1LB .75 inch ID tube is 7.5 inches long, 10x ID.

 

If you guys want nice bottle rocket size tooling, Steve Majdahli makes an awesome 1/4" SBR(Super Bottle Rocket) set. Its basically a Universal\Hybrid spindle just micro. Any motor you can make with the full size Hybrid spindles you can make on this micro spindle. He also makes endburner tooling in 1/4" size.

 

I have both sets, coreburner and endburner. The endburner tooling works really well with extremely fast whistle, no nozzle is used, not sure what the lifting capacity is though. The coreburner tooling using Dan Thames "super" whistle fuel for the whole core can push a 1.75" plastic ball shell full of boom boom juice to a good height.

 

I'm not sure if Steve still makes his kits though. Really nice tools, even comes with the perfect scooper made out of a .22 shell casing!

Very impressive for 1/4 inch rockets, what pressure do you press at (I assume they are pressed)?

[Juiceh]

10,000 psi on the comp.

 

I use a modified 1 ton arbor press for the 1/4" rockets. Total amount of fuel in the 1/4 SBR motor 3 grams. Overall weight of the rocket with the 1.75" shell and 2 bamboo skewers 32.4 grams.

 

Here is a pic of one with a .75 shell, and the one with the 1.75" shell!

 

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/4291/1inchvs175inchheadersbr.jpg

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img692/8498/sbrwsf175inchballweightb.jpg

 

Here's video of the SBR with the 1.75" shell:

http://youtu.be/ylf7wIYX088

 

The take off looks squirley but thats the camera shaking as I am walking backwards away from it.

The rocket in this video used some super fuel that had crappy Na Benzoate in it, I boosted the motor with 2 increments of insanely fast copper oxide catalyzed saly whistle. My current batches of super fuel use finely hammer milled NA Benz and don't require boosting. With the weaker fuel I could get away with boosting them with 4 increments. I used very little delay, I wanna say I used BP as the delay for that rocket which is why you don't hear any whistle. I used a short delay because I was worried about the rocket making a round trip with such a big payload. Turned out to be just about right for delay.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Juiceh

[RobertoDuran121]

Nice rocket there.So...to add a report you would create a cavite with a time delay and then pour in some BP or Flash powder in the top?Also would black powder create as good a "bang" as Flash powder?FP seems to be pretty dangerous stuff.

[RobertoDuran121]

Oh and ill to be looking to make my own tools,it realy simple and I could probably manage to make a plank of wood able to produce many at a time.Also I was aiming for the smallest rocket possible but still carry a POP at the end.My curiosity kicked in and I wonder if the length of the stick matters as long as the fuel is balanced.Last question what should the dimensions of the center pin be in a 3/8 rocket and is there anything smaller than 3/8. Edited August 1, 2013 by RobertoDuran121

[oldspark]

Well flash is dangerous but over stated by many (not all bad), a lot of saftey rules to follow when you make it, some sites dont like to give out information about it, not sure about how this site feels. As long as you are not making ground salutes I think its alright, maybe some one can chime in here as to what can be posted.

[Mumbles]

You might want to look into the binary method for rocket headings. I'd still recommend to get the rockets flying consistently before adding any reports.

 

You can make rockets any size you want really. The only smaller commonly made variety is 1/4" in diameter. These tend to be pretty forgiving as well. Basically any fuel can be used. Steve Majdali sells a set of tooling called the Super Bottle Rocket (SBR for short). This basically allows you to make most any type of rocket in this size. Some do have to be pressed, but an arbor press isn't very pricy, and actually quite useful in the long run.

 

If you'd like to go smaller, about the only thing that comes to mind are visco fuse rockets. There is at least one thread on them here.

[nater]

I highly recommend the SBR kit from Steve Majdali. With faster fuels you will need the 1/4" NEP Tubes he sells too. A small arbor press from Harbor Freight is all you need to press them. The 2 ton model has the working space, but can press too hard and damage the tooling if you are not careful.

 

I also recommend the binary method for a report. Plastic 7/8 hemis make nice headings as do bag headings with microstars or fish fuse and BP. Loose whistle is another good option for a pop, but don't underestimate the hazards of whistle fuel. It is still sensitive and very powerful.

[Juiceh]

Wolter sells a 1/4" kit as well. It has 2 spindle options.

 

Skylighter now also has a core burner 1/4" kit, this spindle is pretty close to an SBR spindle. But it is a fixed spindle and it is smaller.

 

I have all of these sets.

 

Here is a pic of all my 1/4" tooling:

 

http://imageshack.com/scaled/large/202/yvxy.jpg

 

The Wolter tooling is the 2 bases on the left with the AL rammers behind them. The face of the first rammer is machined for the converging portion of the nozzle. They also sell a 1/4" funnel that I have but I don't like very much.

The Skylighter tooling is the square based tooling on the right with the AL rammers to the right of it. The face of the first rammer is not machined for the converging portion of the nozzle.

The SBR tooling is the bases & spindles in the middle. The standard set includes the long spindle, 3 rammers(2 cored, 1 flat), 1 support sleeve, 1 motor extractor bar for removing the tube from the sleeve, 1 scoop made from a .22 shell casing and brass rod. I don't like using the extractor bar until I have used a flat rammer to press the motor out of the sleeve partially by pressing on the grain instead, otherwise the tube often times gets crushed on a well pressed motor when you try to press it out by pushing on the tube walls with the extractor. The optional Endburner spindle has 2 rammers one for the spindle and one for the rest. I have an extra sleeve and scoop. All SBR rammers have no pass lines and switch rammer lines and the face of the first rammers are machined for convergent nozzles.

 

Also included in the pic are some Otoscope tips which are perfect for funnels. I got these from a doctor friend a long time ago, now some pyro sites sell them for this. One of the funnels has a piece of straw glued to it. This is for when I make shorty whistle endburners with the SBR endburner. The straw allows me to use the funnel along with the tube support.The shorties are NEPT 1/4" tubes cut in half pressed on the SBR endburner with the fastest whistle I can make. Also pictured are some 1/4" o-rings for dust minimization and helping to track how far you have pressed. The 2 washers are what I use to pop the spindle out with the SBR tools. Just unscrew the spindle from the base, slip the washers over the base of the spindle, then screw the spindle back down onto the base and the screw and washers do all the work. Oh yeah, and theres a toothpick in there for cleaning out the rammers!

 

When I eventually get my test stand I plan to do alot of testing on little motors. I want to make the smallest, most powerful motor I can!

 

Currently I am experimenting with using the shorty motors as booster motors for multi stage rockets. I have a 4 stage bottle rocket made up with a 7/8 plastic salute shell on top. Should be fun!

 

Using the SBR endburner tooling you can make very simple salute rockets, if you use a standard length tube there is tons of extra space above the spindle, press fast whistle till you cover the spindle and then just use 2-3 increments for delay and fill the rest of the tube with whatever salute you want cap it off and you're done. Just add a stick and fuse it. Simple and kicks the crap out of store bought bottle rockets.

 

Steve told me of another thing you can do with the SBR endburner set. Cover the spindle with fast whistle. Then alternate half increment of BP then 1 increment of Whistle until you fill the tube as far as you want to leave yourself room for the fininshing touches. Makse for a cool little siren rocket.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Juiceh