CONFIRMED - Dagabu is the injured man

[dagabu]

 

A kilo? That's 2.2 pounds, right? How big a cremora would it have made if it had ignited out of the mill as Dagabu's did?

 

I have a book -- a skinny book, a couple of decades old, and kind of funny in that the author has an unusual point of view -- but it's well written, somewhat entertaining, and seems to have a wealth of good information. The title is "Do-It-Yourself Gunpowder", and it's about making BP one way or the other. The author, Don McLean, seems to really know his stuff -- not just about the chemistry of BP, but also about the history of it, and most especially, the practical aspects of working with it.

 

His safety rules are few but explicit. I'm going to paraphrase:

 

 

The author's rule #4 is:

 

 

But I think a better #4 is:

 

 

Last rule:

 

That's it -- those are the five rules of safety.

 

Small, soft containers... stored away from valuable people and property... in small amounts... in SMALL amounts... wear your PPE... do your best to eliminate sources of ignition... but NEVER let yourself lapse into complacency.

 

Oh, and the second paragraph of the second chapter begins with this interesting observation:

 

Is it still common practice to dampen the powder before/during milling? I haven't heard anyone here refer to dampening the powder in the mill, but maybe I just haven't been paying attention.

 

-- Paravani

 

 

No, in fact, dry the chems as much as possible before milling. Damp chems make for caking and that is bad.

[Paravani]

 

No, in fact, dry the chems as much as possible before milling. Damp chems make for caking and that is bad.

 

Thanks, Dag!

[Ddizzle22]

I think its time to sell off all my chems and just buy consumer stuff the whole manufacturing is too scary for my blood.

[dagabu]

It sure can be... You really have to have Black Powder in your veins to go through what some us have and still be a part of pyrotechnics. I was launching ESTES rockets with my dad in 1970 in the grade school ball field and have never been able to say no to rockets since.

[Ddizzle22]

Yeah I guess so after what so of you guys have gone through and I haven't even started I will try to stay away from making them. It's a tough decision but I'd rather have all my fingers then toying with something I'm not 100% on. Who knows I might change my mind but it's good to be scared of something then not at all and get really hurt.

[Paravani]

Yeah I guess so after what so of you guys have gone through and I haven't even started I will try to stay away from making them. It's a tough decision but I'd rather have all my fingers then toying with something I'm not 100% on. Who knows I might change my mind but it's good to be scared of something then not at all and get really hurt.

 

I think if you read all of the injury-related posts again, here and elsewhere on this board, you'll find that in every single case the injured person either wasn't wearing all of their protective gear, or they were handling way too much material all at once, or both.

 

In Dagabu's case, he admits that if he had been wearing his face shield, gloves, and welder's jacket, he might have escaped with only a few first and second-degree burns, in spite of the fact that what injured him was essentially a very large black-powder "cremora" (fireball) created when a huge batch of new BP ignited spontaneously as he emptied the mill.

 

Making amateur pyrotechnics is d***ed dangerous! ... And perversely, the danger may be part of its appeal.

 

But regardless if you find the adrenaline rush from danger to be addictive, if you want to keep making pyrotechnics until you're old, the most important thing to remember is NEVER handle pyrotechnic substances without wearing your PPE -- ALL of your PPE.

 

Otherwise, the day your powder-mill explodes in your hands will invariably be the one day you forgot to put your gloves on first... :-O

 

The other important thing to remember is, stick to small quantities so that your PPE has a chance to work for you. Even PPE won't help if your entire workshop is exploded to Kingdom Come (as happened to another member in an incident described in "The sometimes fatal cost of this hobby").

 

Got that?

 

PPE... Stick to small quantities.... Reduce your risk of explosion in every way you can... and never let down your guard.

 

-- Paravani

Edited July 15, 2014 by Paravani

[Ddizzle22]

Well said my mill is the common hf one but even that one is known to do some damage. Like you stated all of them were the result of no ppe so before I move on I might just get the appropriate gear to actually enjoy the hobby.

[BurritoBandito]

I was also using the 6# HF mill when I had my accident, and feel that some leather gloves would have made a huge difference. I regret my complacency. Always wear your PPE, please.

[Ddizzle22]

Yeah BB I saw your post very scary stuff partly what is scaring me away.

[BurritoBandito]

Don't be scaired away. Just be safe. I was not and thats why I had my accident. Had I used lead media it probably wouldn't have happened at all. I was careless and it bit me in the ass. I feel worse about giving up pyro than I do about my pinky. I will stick around and learn more, and one day when my girls are older I WILL be active again.

[Ddizzle22]

I will see what time brings on what my head wants to do right now i have all the proper stuff just need to find some really good PPE to cover my ass your pics scared me lol. Hope everything is going well..

[dagabu]

BB's pics look really good to me, he will heal fast.

[Ddizzle22]

Yeah he will the DR did good work .

[Paravani]

Well said my mill is the common hf one but even that one is known to do some damage. Like you stated all of them were the result of no ppe so before I move on I might just get the appropriate gear to actually enjoy the hobby.

 

Yup, that's the same one that exploded when BB was milling BP with glass media. I'm glad he's recovering quickly... but he might still have all his fingers if he'd been wearing leather gloves.

 

Even with the right media, mills can still explode.

 

I'm glad you're getting your protective gear together. I'm a newbie, too, and I won't be doing any playing with fire (in spite of my new status! ;-D ) until I have all my gear ready to go.

 

I hate having to wait, but you're right about wanting to enjoy the hobby. Adrenaline is one thing... sheer terror is quite another!

 

-- Paravani

[Ddizzle22]

What gear you been looking at i havent been able to decide what type gloves i want to be able to actually move my fingers and open the mill.

[Bobosan]

Good place to start for safety gear is Home Depot if there are any close by. They have welding gloves, respirators for chemicals and particulates, full face shields & safety glasses. Cotton clothing you probably already have...long jeans and a t-shirt. NO shorts while working with pyro compositions. Trust me on this point.

[Ddizzle22]

Yeah i will work on heading to the home depot and have a look at what they have.

[MrB]

While i do realize this is a futile suggestion...

While cotton clothes are good advice, remember that this is a barrier between you, and what ever is going to explode or burn. Not only do you want it not to melt in to your skin, you also want it to catch shrapnel from plastic and rubber containers, tools and parts of machinery that might have been in the way, and so on. A leather apron, or similar will do wonders, but leaves your backside exposed, don't turn your back on things... Preferably thick protective gear like leather garments for welders is what you should wear, but that gets hot, and means it gets left on the nail by the door where it does a great job of protecting that bit of wall...

B!

[dagabu]

Good point MrB, there is an economy that has to be followed in order to get people to wear their PPE. In my case, I was 45 minutes away from home and it was early in the morning when I left to go make BP. I had left all my gear at home and made a poor decision to just go ahead and make that BP without PPE.

 

My simple cotton jeans and thick cotton sweatshirt made for fine PPE, only spotty little burns. The arms and head... Not so much. If I JUST Had on leather welding gloves and my face shield, I would have walked away from that mess with self healing injuries and to me, that was and is worth the risk.

[Paravani]

Hi, Dizzle!

 

Sorry for the slow reply, but just found out that we're moving to the east coast in a couple of days, so won't be posting much until we're settled into our new place. Wanted to address this post, though:

 

What gear you been looking at i havent been able to decide what type gloves i want to be able to actually move my fingers and open the mill.

 

Any kind of leather gloves will help protect your hands from heat and shrapnel. Opening the mill could cause a burst of heat, if the BP exploded -- but since you will cautiously expect that, I'm sure you'll be keeping your fingers to the side as you pull the top off the mill, and I'm also sure that the mouth of the mill will be pointed away from you. So leather gloves will be quite adequate to keep you from dropping the whole mill and spilling flaming BP everywhere.

 

Leather gloves are cheap at Harbor Freight -- $5-$6 a pair for good ones -- and they're available in several weights. I already have lots, since I have a big yard with lots of blackberries trying to take over. Just buy what you like, and buy several pairs so you have a different pair for each type of mixture. (For example, if you work with chlorates or perchlorates, you want a pair of gloves for that and only that.)

 

Some experienced posters have recommended a different set of PPE for each mixture, as well. If you can afford it, err on the side of caution. I'll settle for washing my clothes thoroughly between mixtures, and maybe one set of gear reserved just for chlorates if I decide to mess with them (in small amounts only).

 

 

My choices for PPE:

 

I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on a set of Nomex coveralls. Those offer good fire resistance without being heavy and cumbersome. They're pretty cheap if you buy them used on eBay -- and since the fabric itself is fire resistant, it doesn't wash out even after hundreds of times through the laundry. So they're a little ratty-looking, and already have a few pinholes on the pants legs... they'll still protect against fire better than cotton alone.

 

However, as Mr. B points out, Nomex doesn't offer a whole lot of protection against flying shrapnel, so I may add a leather welder's jacket to my PPE for working with sensitive comps in containers.

 

PPE priorities should be based on protecting the most essential parts against the most likely accidents (bearing in mind that one attempts to minimize the likelihood of any accidents in the first place!).

 

My hands, face, and head are the number one priorities, so I'm going to do my best to protect them against the most likely accidents that cause explosive flames and small shrapnel. The rest of me is important, too; but I use a computer to make my living, so I have to protect my hands, eyes, and braincase.

 

For that reason, I will ALWAYS wear these PPE essentials, 100% of the time I'm working with flammables or explosives:

 

(1) a Nomex balaclava (hood that covers head and neck but not face),

(2) safety glasses,

(3) a face shield that's resistant to both heat and impact

(4) leather gloves

(5) welder's sleeves

 

In addition to the above essentials, my other PPE will vary according to the hazard level of the work. When working with small amounts of low explosives (like damp star mixtures), I'll just protect my torso, arms, and legs with thick cotton clothing. When I'm playing with thermite or anything else that burns exceedingly hot, I'll wear full Nomex plus leather welder's gear. (Thermite also requires welder's glasses to protect against intense UV rays that can blind you.)

 

However, if I'm just handling BP (a low explosive), I'll be comfortable with cotton clothes, or maybe a Nomex shirt...

 

(It's not entirely rational, but every time I think about dagabu's condition after he survived his 10kg BP cremora, my brain screams, "NOMEX!!! Always wear Nomex!" )

 

When working with fuming chemicals or powdered chemicals that are poisonous to breathe, I'll wear a respirator. They're pretty cheap, and easily available in the paint section of any good hardware store.

 

Also, when working with any kind of powder, I'll have to wear a dust mask to protect my (somewhat sensitive) lungs. It is probably a good idea no matter how good your lungs are, if you want to keep them healthy; but for me it's not optional.

 

That's my PPE plan. When I have everything together, I'll post a pic here.

 

How about you? What do you plan to have for PPE, and what will you wear when?

 

-- Paravani

Edited July 18, 2014 by Paravani

[MrB]

Also, when working with any kind of powder, I'll have to wear a dust mask to protect my (somewhat sensitive) lungs. It is probably a good idea no matter how good your lungs are, if you want to keep them healthy; but for me it's not optional.

I've had that talk with countless painters. USE BREATHERS. "No need, i'm only using water soluble paints".

For pyro's this is even more important. It doesn't really matter HOW nontoxic a substance is. Once it's in your lungs it's not coming back out, with the few exceptions for solids that truly are water soluble. (Paints, aren't. Once they dry, the tiny particles that ends up as airborn spray dust finds it's way in to your respiratory system, it's in there for good. Just as most of the stuff we use. Charcoal, metals, and so on.

I'd suggest a real particle filter. A facemask is a lot worse to work with, and a dust mask is better then nothing, but after a day with pyro, if you can pick your nose and find dark matter, you should have worn better protection. (i'm not going to suggest starting a habit of picking your nose. That has to be something everyone decides for them self...)

 

Oh, and while on the topic. Eye protection. Always use sealing eye-protection when working with metal powders, and salts. Scratches to the cornea do heal, but cause scaring, which will, especially if it's a reoccurring thing, cause eyesight to suffer. Not to mention the freaking PAIN of having shit in your eyes...

B!

Edited July 18, 2014 by MrB

[Excal]

Hope things are still going well for you Dave. I see this thread hasn't had any movement for awhile and just needed to check in again. I think about your incident quite often and remind myself why I kinda got away from the pyro stuff. I still purchase and shoot the commercial stuff, I just got away from trying to mix anything up. Maybe one day I will again. Lost my dad last December so my mind has been occupied with other things to say the least. Life being to short is one. I spotted the Easter Pic and it looks like you have made a remarkable recovery, so congratulations on that.

 

Take care all.