Granulating (ricing) BP for Lift ect.

[dangerousamateur]

Hi guys,

 

when i make lift i normally wet my bp with a dextrine solution and rice it with a colander screen.

 

However, wetting is supposed to make larger crystals afterwards and ruin my ballmills work.

Do you feel that this affects the performance in practice?

 

Skylighter suggests using redgum and alcohol - will this work much better?

 

What method do you prefer?

[Mumbles]

Everyone has their own opinion and preferences on this matter. For me, consistency is more important than absolute performance and burn speed so I use dextrin activated with water. Red gum will probably give the overall fastest powder, but the grains will not be as strong. Binding with water or dextrin liquor will give much stronger grains, probably with some decrease in speed. Most pyros still use some sort of water bound system. There has been talk recently of binding with the dextrin pre-dissolved will give a faster powder. There is some conflicting opinions and data on this too though.

 

In any case, binding with water still yields an excellent product assuming you're starting with quality meal to begin with. People get too worked up over getting the absolute hottest powder in my opinion. If binding with water "ruins" your BP, the quality is probably not up to par in the first place.

[Blackthumb]

I use a dextrin solution...no problems...

[dangerousamateur]

Thank for you opinion.

 

I'll try it out with dextrine first. My dextrine H3 was allways rock hard. On the other hand, i found my riced bp rocket mix without any binder adequate for shells to, because it will not be abused in any way.

Only it was to slow for lifting shells of course.

[AirCowPeacock]

I recently switched to 2% SGRS, very pleased with the results. I get faster, harder powder with less binder--it dries more quickly too.

[Mia]

I use urea formaldehyde rock hard grains little or no drop in performance

[BJV]

I use urea formaldehyde rock hard grains little or no drop in performance

What percentage Mia.

 

BJV

[Mia]

4% the grains will crackle a little but hey so what

[FlaMtnBkr]

If you are using dextrine liquor it is more viscous and covers the BP more than absorb into it. It should have less of a negative effect than mixing in the dextrine and using plain water to wet it. Supposedly this has been verified with a black powder gun and chronograph. But what will make the most difference if using water, is how fast you dry it. If you get it in the sun and breeze or a drying chamber and get it dry in a couple hours versus a couple days, there should be little Crystal growth and about as fast of powder as you're going to get with what you start with.

 

Ned claims to get his fastest powder using only alcohol and no binder. Makes sense if you don't need rock hard grains. I have never used a binder and use my powder for everything. Nozzleless rockets, lift, and burst. But I don't make shells bigger than 4" and they don't get banged around. I haven't noticed a problem with my BP not being rock hard and I can screen out the size I need for an application and only make one type of BP which is pretty hot based on my BP tester. If I made bigger shells then I would probably need something slower and more gentle.

 

Regardless of the binder and your procedure, if you use a good ball mill and hot charcoal your BP should be quiet a bit more powerful than commercial Goex.

Edited April 16, 2013 by FlaMtnBkr

[pyrojig]

IMO dextrin is the cheapest and the best to fit the bill. Other choices may be a better binder per-say, but it usually in-tales more cost. Sgrs seems next in line for cost and may prove as stated above a better binder.

 

The more exotic ones cost more ,and may use expensive alcohol/acetone to bind. This however may be good for a onsite shooting event, where powders need to be made fast and dried fast.

[dangerousamateur]

Check this out:

He is ramming pretty hard. My granules would crumble here. Would yours?

(or does that not matter with guns?)

Edited May 18, 2013 by dangerousamateur

[marks265]

What do I prefer?

 

1) Not get caught up in all the hype

2) Spend the least amount of money

3) Use the cheapest and most readily available materials for me

4) Lift and break my shells tuned to my powder and my expectations

5) Use the least amount of time to manufacture

6) Be consistent

7) Keep less crap on my shelves

8) Avoid far reaching or exotic manipulations

 

So, I mill my powder with 3% dextrin added to the charge. Once wet for ricing allow plenty of time for the dextrin to activate. The milling helps to distribute the dextrin throughout the mix. Allowing the dextrin to become fully wet helps with even grain sizing when granulating. Putting the wetted mixture into a ball and letting it rest helps to distribute the moisture while waiting for the dextrin to activate. Of course the repeated granulating helps to distribute the water as well. I don't think I could stand to try to keep a bottle or two of dextrin solution, or any other for the purpose of making BP. I don't have enough room for what I have now and adding to it would be ridiculous. No alcohol, no red gum, no gum arabic, no urea formaldehyde, no acetone, no SGRS, no liquors, no BS.

 

Mark

[dan999ification]

Well said, that's how I see it. Keep things simple.

 

My cheese grater bp usually has 2.5% dextrin added after milling, I have used this for Roman candles. I don't think he rammed that hard really considering how dense commercial bp is. I feel it matters more with guns.

 

Dan.

 

 

[Poindexter]

Check this out:

He is ramming pretty hard. My granules would crumble here. Would yours?

(or does that not matter with guns?)

 

Watched the video. My grains (+5% Dextrin) would laugh at that ram rod and not be affected. I suspect he was trying to smoosh his paper wrapped charge against the back wall of the chamber.

 

I think it does matter with guns, but I am still learning how much. In general with BPCR (black powder cartridge reloading or black powder cartridge rifle, depends on who you ask) ~~~ in general in cartridges a BP charge should be compressed 0-10% once the bullet is seated in the case mouth. Also, while I don't know about cannon in rifle and pistol the bullet should have a gas tight fit against the barrel wall.

 

In BPCR they talk about how BP can detonate if you leave airspace inside the loaded cartridge. In pyrotechnics it seems like mortar charges leave quite a bit of air space around the lift charge, and gas tight seals between the shell and mortar barrel are considered dangerous.

 

Considering how loose a fit the golf ball was in the barrel and how relatively small the charge was (I dunno the upper charge limit for that cannon), it seems to me more like a pyrotechnic cannon than an actual gun. In 45 Colt the powder space in the cartridge is easily twice, perhaps 2.5x the volume of the lead bullet. In 45-70 (bison rifle) the space for powder charge is 3-4x the volume of the lead bullet.

 

Regardless of application, BPCR or pyrotechnics, it is pretty clear to me that consistency is the main thing. If you are making the powder the same speed and power batch after batch then you won't have to adjust the sights on your rifle every batch, and you wont have to go shoot 200 baseballs every batch to know how much lift to use.

[Poindexter]

I am pretty sure there are a couple or three folks here with more muzzleloading experience than me. It wouldn't take much, I sold mine off pretty quick after the honeymoon.

 

What I remember was the first pass of the ramrod on the bare powder charge felt more like scraping all the powder off the inside wall of the barrel and getting the powder all in one lump. To get to 1.7 gram/ cc with mill dust takes a big press, I don't know any human going to take any powder charge to a higher density than that with a hickory stick and bare hands. Get the whole charge scraped together and minimize airspace, yeah, OK.

 

Then slide a patched ball down the barrel until it is seated firmly on top of the powder charge, that's about all you can do without a hydraulic press I think.

[dangerousamateur]

Ok you convinced me. I will stick with dextrine. The long drying times suck though

[Nessalco]

I use two methods, depending on purpose. For my lift powder and priming powder for comets I use willow BP pressed, corned, and screened. I like the consistency and durability of corned powder. Despite the nay-sayers, it is not that big an investment in work or time - I pressed, corned, and seived 9 lbs of BP in one afternoon, taking my time and working carefully. I use about 15 pounds of corned BP per year, so a couple afternoon's work a year are adequate for my needs.

 

For break charges, I use BP made from eastern red cedar, wet with alcohol and grated through a 4-mesh screen. Makes grains solid enough to be handled, but soft enough to allow closing a shell easily. The theory is that enough resin remains in the ERC charcoal after cooking that it serves as an adequate binder. One thing for sure is that it is a blisteringly fast powder.

 

Kevin O

[psyco_1322]

Ok you convinced me. I will stick with dextrine. The long drying times suck though

 

Spread evenly on some craft paper, outside on a hot day, or in a warm area with a fan blowing on it, the powder should be dried by the next day. That's relatively fast drying if you compare it to other things. Of course everything dries much faster in a drying box, but I would still let it run overnight. There is no need to be in a hurry in this hobby. If you are building for an event, give yourself proper time to make and dry stuff.