leedrill Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 hi all im interested in making some KCLO3 based stars for i have a fair bit around and other things called for in these comps. im aware of a couple of the incompatibilities the main one being sulphur my question being i know there is still quite a few using chlorate based stars in their shells and so forth, what needs to be done to make sure these incompatibilities aren't a safety issue ie do those whom use these mixes make sulphur-less bp to coat their rice hulls and so on or dose this just become a circumstance to use burst balloons. is there any other incompatibilities i should be worried of, other than having any NH4CLO4 in a completely different storage area and never use these in the same working area and please if a moderator believes this is not enough of a chemistry question please move it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 If you just scroll down the page , you'd see that the topic is already open on Kclo3 star comps and their incompatibilities. It is 4 or 5 posts from the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leedrill Posted March 19, 2013 Author Share Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) i have read all of these posts explaining the incompatibilities. but im more asking how to avoid these without excluding kclo3 from any project as i said every one seems to still use them, so im more asking for info on how to be safe while still using them but i have been re reading all the posts pertaining any info on this topic and am not finding any precautions just advice to make kclo4 based stars and so forth but maybe ive missed something could you tell me if im missing a thread somewhere cause from your questions asked in the other thread i assume using dichromate wont stop all the incompatibility issues. but i don't completely understand the process of what is happening by adding it i have read into it a bit but am still a little confused. Edited March 19, 2013 by leedrill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) The heating up reaction is from very fine magnal 400-600 mesh. Any water creates a reaction with these fine metals,(mostly in kno3 based comps), The concern was if magnal would degrade and if the boric acid was dangerous in a kclo3 comp. The solution would be to treat with dichromate as you would in mag. (but remember I was using super fine metal powder, 200 mesh wont react like this and in my experience will not need to be coated). The kclo3 comps can be primed with bp that has sulfur( acid free). As a prime layer and not a loose powder it is less prone to have friction issues.*Your correct about ammonium perch and not mixing it with chlorates (or nitrates ,including prime), Most star comps can utilize kclo3 as a very effective replacement for perch, usually 1-1 ratio. The concern is avoiding these double decomp reactions or acidic conditions( that is where the danger lies for the most part). The advantages of kclo3 are larger flame ,faster burn rate,ease of ignition, cost, and very rich colors. Edited March 19, 2013 by pyrojig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumber Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 addition of sulphur in chlorate based composition increases sensitivity highly to both impact and friction,so it is wise not to use the composition that uses sulphur.You could use sulferless chlorate based star formulas and sulferless prime for such stars. tissue paper can seperate BP burst and stars in aerial shells but it is not totally safe,under such circumstances sulferless burst can be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leedrill Posted March 19, 2013 Author Share Posted March 19, 2013 cheers pyro and swap i kinda know little bits about most of this but i think this makes it easier to understand. i was assuming from everything i had read that sulphur and kclo3 can actually react over time in such ways to cause ignition. these statements make me think it just increase sensitivity making it dangerous to transport, {please correct me if what i'm taking away from this is wrong }. and pyrojig The kclo3 comps can be primed with bp that has sulfur( acid free).sorry i dont know how to quote yet when you say this is this meaning with no acids added or can some sulphur be more acidic than others . some of my magnalium is 400-600 mesh easy, is specified as 600 so i must consider all risks before i start mixing anything else you can help me with would be greatly appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 You can't replace perc with chlorate 1:1 without issue.. I tried making buell red with a 1:1 replacement with chlorate and the mixture burns with a lot of slag and not very red at all, while with perc it burns like it should. I think the oxygen balance is not the same. I tried changing ratios to tweak it but just gave up, it won't work. Same with other perchlorate color formula, when I did a 1:1 replacement of perchlorate with chlorate, it burned with a lot of slag and the color was greatly diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Taiwanluthiers /:This is true, ratio I believe is 1-1.18 perch to chlorate. Also it depends on the comps, some prefer kclo3 over the perch . @ Lee: There is acidic sulfur out there (flowers of Sulfur being the worst followed by farm grades) . These are best for bp based comps or bp that will not touch chlorate comps. Many of the biggest builders in other countries use chlorate and primed with Acid free bp ( using rubbermakers sulfur or purified sulfur). The coating of bp on a chlorate star is not effected by friction as one may think. It is more so a safer way to do it if one where to use bp burst as a filler in the shell. The media has hyped the dangers of chlorate, and in some ways for a good reason. For inexperienced users it may save their life. The hype was mostly due to the use of unwashed sulfur and other impurities that where present in the old days. The lack of knowledge and technology lead to many accidents and deaths. Such as milling chlorate comps, using soured wheat-paste ( acidic ) , bad sulfur , and other impurities . Also finely divided metals with chorates is a dangerously explosive mixture. Requiring less heat and friction to set off. These are known to selfconfine in very small amounts 1/4gram or even less. So much care needs to be taken when handling these comps . Heating up of the wetted comp with the 400-600 mesh is inevitable in these comps(especially w/ nitrates) w/o a dichromate treatment. *If you ever experience this , roll the patty out thin, and the heat will dissipate w/o heating the comp to dangerous levels , or ignition of the mix , give it some time to cool, and re-work the mass again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leedrill Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 is sulphur able to be mixed with a little water and tested with a ph tester or something to ensure the degree of acidity or quality of it and cheers this is all making sense to me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 This is one approach. I have used ph tester strips to test ph. This seems like the best approach for sulfur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 It would probably give you some indication. I would think it would be the most sensitive and telling if you tested sulfur right after milling or grinding. The general majority of acids and acidic gases should be trapped inside of the sulfur particles. Just so you're aware, in my experience sulfur is rather hydrophobic. It might take some strong stirring or shaking to get good extraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogeryermaw Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 sorry to dig up an old thread. i had a question about the acidity of sulfur as well. will dissolution of flowers of sulfur and recrystallization from toluene result in an acid free product? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maserface Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 just buy rubber makers sulfur and forget about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Fuggedaboudit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Roger : I believe that the cost to purify the sulfur, outweighs the troubles and as suggested above , it is better to purchase sulfur that is acid free ( rubber makers) when considering use in comps with chlorate ( as in target mix , scratch comps, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrocoyote Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Use KP burst and prime with same, chlorate cut stars don't need priming, lights easy. A little willow dusting on priming works well also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 That is a approach , but bp has a lower ignition temp. It is used by Shimizu and Hardt in star comps containing kclo3 as a prime. Bp if acid free can be used and will make very suitable star prime . I would assume that the original poster was after rolling round stars then priming them. One could use H3 as a prime as well. It is claimed to be quite insensitive to friction and shock( H-3) , and has a lower ignition temp than bp. I would go the bp or H3 approach v.s. a kclo4 type prime for kclo3 stars. Just my two cents.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 KP contains sulfur as well, so no it won't work. H3 will work but only in smaller shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts