Whistle Rocket Tooling

[Flaky234]

Hi,

 

I would like to make some 19mm Long Winded Screamer tooling but I don't have a plan for the tool which suits my needs.

 

So I thought I ask some more experienced tool/rocket makers...

 

I have 19cm long and 19mm id tubes.

 

I want a whistle rocket which takes off like a thunder and it should use Kclo4/Kbenz/Red iron oxide, copper oxy chloride,oil fuel.

 

Can someone give me a good plan with rammers??

 

Thanks

[dagabu]

I recommend this tooling set if you have very solid tubes like the NEPT tubes, if not, shorten the spindle until they no longer CATO.

 

[Flaky234]

Thank you very much!

 

But how can it be attached to a Stand (the round thing on the bottom) because the collar high is matched up with the 19mm tube^^

 

Thank you very much!

[Mumbles]

The diagram shows just the part that extends out of the base. From what you're given in the diagram you can extend that collar at the bottom if you'd like to recess it into the tube and attach via some sort of set pin or screw from the bottom or really whatever you'd like.

[Flaky234]

Thanks,

 

do you know the standart price is what a lathe guy wants for this? I don't want to get ripped off...

 

And everything is made out of 6061 aluminium?

This looks like a Standart black powder tooling am i right?

 

Because if it is a Standart tooling I rather buy a extra 1lb core bp tooling^^

 

Thanks and please answer^^

Edited March 15, 2013 by Flaky234

[Mumbles]

I just re-read your first post, and it sounds like you're really not very familiar with long winded screamers. It's more than just a tooling set. There is a special manufacturing technique that goes into them, and they use two different fuels. You might want to join or go over to passfire. Steve LaDuke has covered all of this in good detail.

[Flaky234]

Thanks,

 

Thanks Mumbels it is really confusing because everybody says different things and I think you know more than other people.^^

 

Someone told me he knows people which uses a normal bp spindel for making benzoate long winded screamers...

 

And thanks for the tip with passfire!

[dagabu]

Expect to pay around $150.00 US for this set. This particular tooling design is for the Kclo4/Kbenz/Red iron oxide, copper oxy chloride,oil fuel you mentioned, therefore the longer spindle. You would use the below tooling if you were to use sodium salicylate but you called out benzoate so the spindle has to longer to provide the same boost to reach the height required to be able to burn for the required time.

 

[Mumbles]

I probably should have provided more details. As the long winded screamer was described to be my Steve himself was that it's a mixture of both salicyliate and benzoate whistle increments. Steve believes that salicyliate whistles are stronger than benzoate. Thus he presses increments of sali whistle, then benzo whistle. He adjusts how many of each to where they stop exploding on the launch pad. Generally decreasing Sali increments. This is how he makes a lot of toolings and rockets. He really is a genius and innovator when it comes to rockets, but he really only work empirically. He makes rockets explode, and then backs them off until they just stop exploding, so they're always on the red line and generally have good performance.

 

Steve really is a one of a kind person. Trust me, if you ever meet him in person, that is an understatement. If you find him on Passfire, he'll fill you in on everything you need to know. He's one of the few people I know that will give away really all of his tips and secrets. Even so, he generally cleans up in PGI competitions. I really think he enjoys giving away all the information because it keeps him constantly tweaking and innovating, and keeps moving the field forward.

[Flaky234]

Hi,

 

I have read more about whistles and now I understand that kclo4/kbenz/fe2o3/oil whistle is really weak for rockets!

I now know that you have to use copper oxy chloride for whistle rockets because fe2o3 doesn't effect benzoate whistle mix!

Now I want to buy a tooling set which can be used for strobe and whistle rockets!

 

I looked some toolings up on firesmith and I can't decide which I should buy!

 

My two favourites are: Universal Core Burner and Nozzleless Core Burner!

 

In his tutorial he used the Nozzleless Core Burner with benzoate whistle fuel but can the Universal Core Burner also be used with benzoate whistle without lack of power?

 

I mean the Nozzleless Core Burner is just a 1lb black powder tooling which has a longer spindel!

 

Why can't I just buy a cheap 1lb black powder core burner tooling and use this for whistle rockets?

 

Thanks

[dagabu]

Hi,

 

I have read more about whistles and now I understand that kclo4/kbenz/fe2o3/oil whistle is really weak for rockets!

I now know that you have to use copper oxy chloride for whistle rockets because fe2o3 doesn't effect benzoate whistle mix!

Now I want to buy a tooling set which can be used for strobe and whistle rockets!

 

Use caution when making decisions about what does and what does not work in whistle fuel. fe2o3 certainly does work as a catalyst in Benzoate based whistle fuels, there are plenty of thrust tests to prove the difference. Dan Creagan and some others did pretty exhaustive testing some years ago, you can find the data HERE.

 

I looked some toolings up on firesmith and I can't decide which I should buy!

 

My two favourites are: Universal Core Burner and Nozzleless Core Burner!

 

Get the Universal Core Burner set with the brass spindle, you can make 11 different motors (to date) with that set.

 

In his tutorial he used the Nozzleless Core Burner with benzoate whistle fuel but can the Universal Core Burner also be used with benzoate whistle without lack of power?

 

Trust me, the Universal set does not lack power with Benzoate whistle, it is not as powerful as Salicylate but when lifting heavier shells, Benzoate is better due to the more fluid thrust curve.

 

I mean the Nozzleless Core Burner is just a 1lb black powder tooling which has a longer spindel

 

Nope, Ben's spindles are the same length, the nozzleless set has a skinnier spindle and no taper at the bottom for the divergence as it is not needed.

 

Why can't I just buy a cheap 1lb black powder core burner tooling and use this for whistle rockets?

 

Yes, you can do that but you will blow up a few in doing so due to too much fuel burning at once. You may have to add a few increments of BP close to the top of the spindle.

 

BTW- You seem to have a lot of misinformation so please allow me to set the record straight. Even Salicylate whistle rockets use Benzoate whistle at the top (or somewhere along the spindle top) so that you can hear the nice whistle that Benzoate makes along with reducing the thrust to a point where the tube doesn't split.

 

Dag

 

Thanks

[WonderBoy]

Flaky, what type of tooling are you currently using?

 

You might be interested in this thread, we discussed several tooling types: http://www.amateurpy...rocket-tooling/

 

As I said in that thread, I would recommend purchasing the Super BP Core Burn set. It seems to me to be the most versatile, especially when using benzoate whistle. As I understand it, the Universal set is designed around using salicylate whistle, so it is not the best suited for using with benzoate whistle. Benzoate whistles benefit from narrower spindles.

 

Also, I second Mumble's advice, I would look into subscribing to Passfire or Fireworking.com for more information on these rockets.

 

 

Dag, nice to see you back.

I have no personal experience with Ben's Nozzleless set, but if you read through the thread I linked to above, Ben says "The spindle is a bit taller and skinnier than the Super BP set... plus it also doesn't have the convergent/divergent nozzle geometry in the spindle and #1 rammer."

 

And I disagree on this:

"'Why can't I just buy a cheap 1lb black powder core burner tooling and use this for whistle rockets?'

'Yes, you can do that but you will blow up a few in doing so due to too much fuel burning at once.'"

YMMV, but I routinely press straight benzoate whistle all the way up my BP tooling and have never had a cato. I don't own the Super BP set, but I know that "Super whistle fuel" has been used on it with much success, and I am willing to bet straight benzoate whistle would work too. (assuming chinese perc)

 

 

WB

Edited April 9, 2013 by WonderBoy

[dagabu]

RE: And I disagree on this:

YMMV, but I routinely press straight benzoate whistle all the way up my BP tooling and have never had a cato. I don't own the Super BP set, but I know that "Super whistle fuel" has been used on it with much success, and I am willing to bet straight benzoate whistle would work too. (assuming chinese perc)

 

 

WB

 

I assume that my perc is a little more powerful then since I cant use standard BP tooling loaded all the way up to the tip with heavy wall NEPT tubes with Cu/Benzo without a CATO. Steve LaDuke did in fact specify the use of Benzo in one of the 11 or so rocket motors that could be made with the UT system, it is not all about Sali by any means.

 

In fact, right from Steve's treatise from a couple years ago states that Sali can be used for the first few to several increments but has to be topped with Benzo to keep it from CATOing. The amount of increments will vary depending on the power of your fuel.

 

I was able to spend the day with Steve at his place to learn about whistle, his way of making it makes a more powerful fuel even though he used all of my chems to make it.

 

But like you say, YMMV, and does it ever!

 

Thanks for the welcome back, its been a long recovery.

[nater]

I second the advice to get the Universal Core burn set from Firesmith. I have two sizes and a third on the way. There are no issues with power using benzoate whistles pressed as the only fuel on it.

 

 

[dagabu]

I second the advice to get the Universal Core burn set from Firesmith. I have two sizes and a third on the way. There are no issues with power using benzoate whistles pressed as the only fuel on it.

 

Thanks for the reminder Nate. I lifted a 6" ball shell on a 3/4" ID UT motor on Benzoate at PGI last year. I think I posted the video here, gimme a moment to check my YouTube.

[Flaky234]

Hi,

 

Are you guys using the same core burner tooling for whistle and black powder rockets?

 

Is it dangerous to press bouth things on one tooling or should a extra tooling be bought?

 

Thanks

 

btw. how to you guys clean a 1lb tooling?

[dagabu]

Great questions.

 

Yes, I use the Universal Hybrid Tooling about 90% of the time. I like the numerous things you can do with the UT, like strobes, LWS, BP, Chuffers, Gerbs (yes, gerbs) long tailed, Hybrid and nozzless.

 

The only thing I would not press on a spindle is Ti, above it, fine but around it is asking for trouble and not for the reasons you may think. The Ti grabs the spindle and doesn't want to let go, this scratches the spindle and creates a LOT of friction.

 

I clean the tooling as i press my rockets. When I put the rammer back in the block, I make sure it has no fuel left inside it. 99% of the time, a tap with a plastic screwdriver handle dislodges anything stuck but there are times when a small nylon cleaning brush needs to be used.

[nater]

Adding to Dag's post, I wipe the spindle off with a clean rag after each motor is removed. When it needs it., I polish the tooling with Mother's billet polish.

 

I also use the Universal core burn tooling for all rockets. BP only motors with a nozzle need a hotter fuel than when using standard BP tooling. 70/20/10 was speced by SLD and works well for me. I have not been able to make a good nozzleless BP only motor on the Universal tooling. With my techniques, a little whistle added to the BP gives it enough snort to perform well.

Edited April 12, 2013 by nater

[pex]

 

 

I made this whistle tool today. How do you think it looks like?

 

Pex

[MrB]

I think it looks... asymmetrical. Probably just an artifact of the picture.

B!

[pex]

Yes thats how the picture is taken.

 

Took my three oude to make

[pex]

 

Camera

[Bobosan]

I think it looks... asymmetrical. Probably just an artifact of the picture.

B!.

A bit narrow at the bottom. Might be a tough one to remove once a motor is pressed.

 

Pex, did you use a hand file to make the spindle?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Bobosan

[pex]

I made it in a drill. With file an sand paper. Is it better to sand paper it a bit more that the spindle would be a bit thinner?

[MrB]

Ram one using wheat flour. It should show you if there is any extraction issues. Bobsan might be right, and if it's really so, making the choke smaller then the core will make it crack bits off when trying to extract it.

B!