flying fish Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Is it possible to reliably decontaminate tools and/or screens between use with Ammonium Perchlorate and use with Barium/Potassium Chlorate? My thought was to heat my star pumps under a hot flame to ensure that whatever oxidizer is on it decomposes. If my sources are correct this would be around 300 degrees C for AP and around 400 for KCLO3. Screens are cheap and my plan is just to buy a separate set of them, but out of curiosity I wonder if there is a reliable way to decontaminate them. Soaking, for instance? I'm also curious as to the level of contamination that would present a hazard. Would you literally have to get AP dust in your chlorate stars or would tiny trace contamination from a clean-to-the-naked-eye star pump be enough to cause bad things to happen? Edited February 4, 2013 by flying fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Water? Ammonium perchlorate dissolves good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algenco Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Don't take my word, but I would think soap and lots of water would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I am guessing the whole thing is mostly erring on the side of caution. With good washing just about any oxidizer would dissolve, and all except for potassium perchlorate dissolves fairly well to fair (like potassium chlorate) in cold water, and in hot water they all dissolve very well. I would assume a trip through a dishwasher would clean just about anything off the tool. However there's always material absorption where for critical analysis even washing with soap and water isn't enough, and they use acid solutions to clean lab glassware so the assumption is that trace amounts of chemical could remain on the tool. There's also the matter of not cleaning them well enough like bits of composition stuck in a crevice and it's really easy to get things confused, and then poof! According to passfire's safety article, AP and chlorate should not be in the same workshop, choose one or the other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying fish Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thanks guys. I've read the passfire safety article and took note of his recommendation. At the moment I've been wanting to try some chlorate greens, but in the past I've used AP with all of my star pumps and most of my screens. I don't plan on having them in the same workshop at the same time, but rather am wondering if there's a safe way to transfer over from one to the other without buying a second set of everything. I think there are a lot of variables involved, such as the size, quantity, and distribution of contaminating particles. Perhaps nobody really knows the exact nature a contaminant's distribution in a bulk live comp that is capable of producing spontaneous ignition. But it was worth a try, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 For screens, I don't think there's any possible way to physically clean them enough. Too many spaces between wires and tight corners. Even chemically or thermally, out of billions of molecules stuck to the screen some small percentage will survive. Whether it would be an insignificant amount that is no more than would otherwise be present as a contamination on your clothes or in the air around us I have no idea. I think that some tools might clean easier than others, and perhaps it would be safe to use them after a good scrubbing and maybe a chemical bath of some kind that would decompose the oxidizers. I would avoid high heat as it might warp your tooling and make it not fit together again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I mill potassium chlorate and ammonium perchlorate in the same jar. I do clean both the jar and the milling media - stainless steel cylinders - very thoroughly with dish soap and water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I hope no accidents has happened so far... I mean you could clean both the jar and the media but I find even with a non porous surface like glass or metal some will still get stuck and it is impossible to get all of the milling media absolutely clean. I wash my brass media and jar thoroughly with soap and water and they still smell like bp, there's no way to clean it even if you milled sand for hours on it. Mill any other chemical and I guarantee you some of those stuff will rub right off into your chems... so use separate jar/media for different chemicals which can get expensive... it sucks but it's either that or a mass of stars self-igniting. I have seen people use dedicated coffee grinders for single chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 You can't get sulfur away with water, that's why it smells. You can get it away with toluene and similar solvents, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying fish Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 NHIL, I see what you mean about the screens. Most screens are made by weaving the wires over and under, which would mean lots of potential areas for material to wedge into. If the screen metal wets well enough I'd think water would eventually work it's way into those areas but I couldn't say for sure. The wooden frames could perhaps be even more difficult to decontaminate due to the porosity. Another reason to switch to bucket screens perhaps! I do have access to a lab furnace so I can dial in a precise temperature (make sure I go high enough to get the oxidizers off while still being very far away from the melting temperature) but of course I would try it on a scrap piece of brass before I go putting star pumps in there! At this point I'm mostly interested in decontaminating the brass star pumps, as they would be most difficult to replace. My biggest fear isn't a batch of stars igniting in the open but rather something exploding in my magazine. I used to be that guy drying stars in his garage but I have since switched to the back 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 It's sort of interesting that you mention brass star pumps and that you'd like to decontaminate the AP from them in order to use chlorates. AP tends to attack brass quite vigorously, especially when damp or if not cleaned immediately. To me it's not worth it to chance it. You say you wouldn't have AP and chlorates present in your workshop at the same time. I wouldn't have them present in the same workshop ever. I don't have faith that any cleaning method would ever be able to totally remove the contamination. PotassiumChlorate, that is an idiotic risk to take on your part to mill sulfur in the same jar and media as chlorates. Toluene, even hot will not remove everything. If anything, it'd probably trap sulfur in the jar material. You take enough pointless and precarious risks as it is. You're a statistic waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying fish Posted February 6, 2013 Author Share Posted February 6, 2013 I haven't noticed any corrosion of my star pumps. However, I did not use water based binders with any of my AP stars, and my phase of experimenting with AP colors was brief. To hear a chemist say not to do it... I think I've taken the message to heart! I can save the barium chlorate greens for a different time and place. Sounds like this should also go for trading of chemicals, making sure the receiving parties know if either AP or chlorates were used nearby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossOut Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Depends on what your dealing with, Soap and water for general cleaning, for lacquers and resins acetone or other solvents works great. and finally a very dilute solution of HCL for fine metals.. again it depends on what you are cleaning or cleaning up. ive used a HCL bath to clean off my Zirconium media after milling MgAl, ive had to use acetone on my plastic wear to clean off red gum or other stickies. and soap and water for everything ealse. You can also use mineral spirits followed up with soap and water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 PotassiumChlorate, that is an idiotic risk to take on your part to mill sulfur in the same jar and media as chlorates. Toluene, even hot will not remove everything. If anything, it'd probably trap sulfur in the jar material. You take enough pointless and precarious risks as it is. You're a statistic waiting to happen. No no, you misunderstand. I don't mill sulfur and chlorates in the same jar. I just said that toluene might dissolve the sulfur but that water will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I would get a separate chlorate screen or ball mill drum if needed and sleep calmly on my pillow. No need to take chances I think. Personally I've only mixed media once. I used to mill chlorate with a Al2O3 ceramic media. Then I cleaned it the following way - I washed it with water hot a few times, dried it with a towel and then milled a nitrate which I used for a chlorate friendly star compositon. The previous drum was let for chlorates only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TritonPyro Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 I use a separate screen for different comps and they are marked. I also use plastic throwaway cups to measure out and plastic spoons. No clean up and no contamination. On the other hand I also use separate jars for milling and again they are marked. I do not use chlorates. I can see by the posts how easy it would be to get into a bad situation. Great ideas and thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiasxx94 Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Quick question here regarding almost the same topic so i don't want to start a new thread: I'm going to make some green stars with barium chlorate as the main oxidizer. Would you say that it's a safety concern that I have used the star roller to coat rice puffs with black powder before? It's a relatively long time ago and I have made other sulfurfree stars meanwhile in the star roller, the bucket is also pretty well cleaned. IIRC barium chlorate is way more sensitive than potassium chlorate, so I'm a little bit sceptical. The star formula is: Barium chlorate....60 Barium nitrate.......20 Red gum............. 15 Dextrin..................5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 It would seem to me, that if your tools are washed, it would be safe to use them for any chemical after washing. But this may not be true, and it would certainly be safer to have separate tools for each sensitive chemical. I think a lot more research and testing would be needed to determine how safe it is to wash and reuse tools for separate chemicals. On a side note, I mill my potassium perchlorate (which is less sensitive than chlorate, if i'm not mistaken) in the same jar and media I mill my blackpowder in. (of course after very thorough washing). I have had no accidents happen, but this does not necessarily mean it is a safe practice. Again, more testing may be needed. But it is probably safer just to always use separate tools for each sensitive chemical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaMtnBkr Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I mill potassium chlorate and ammonium perchlorate in the same jar. I do clean both the jar and the milling media - stainless steel cylinders - very thoroughly with dish soap and water. I would think potassium chlorate and AP would be much more dangerous to cross contaminate (the same mill jar?! Really?) than KCLO3 and sulfur. Either is pretty stupid, but the chance of making ammonium chlorate (a primary high explosive I believe?) would try to be avoided at all costs and not thrown into the same jar no matter how much its been cleaned. Having a user name of potassium chlorate you would think you would know all incompatibilities and precautions needed with it. Mumbles is right, you are destined to become a statistic if you knowingly do a known no-no like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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