The Bucket Cell - Start to Finish

[Richtee]

I realize it's been over nine years since Swede has posted anything. That's too bad, he was a prolific researcher and documented his thoughts and projects well. We miss him and his offerings which supported our own efforts in electrochemistry.

 

We wish him well in his current pursuits and hope he is well.

 

WSM

Yeah..I miss him too. Even tho I’m not much into electro. I DID clean some vintage cast iron cookware a year or so ago. Bright an’ shiny as cast can be!

[WSM]

Yeah..I miss him too. Even tho I’m not much into electro. I DID clean some vintage cast iron cookware a year or so ago. Bright an’ shiny as cast can be!

 

CLEAN cast iron?!! Better season it before rust gets hold!

 

WSM

[Richtee]

 

CLEAN cast iron?!! Better season it before rust gets hold!

 

WSM

Oh, was done immediately with bacon grease and a charcoal fire.

[Richtee]

 

CLEAN cast iron?!! Better season it before rust gets hold!

 

WSM

Here’s a fun vid..a hydrogen bubble being disposed of. Look at the CRUD that came off that pan? Jeebus!

[WSM]

Here’s a fun vid..a hydrogen bubble being disposed of. Look at the CRUD that came off that pan? Jeebus!

 

 

Yeow! That pan was pretty nasty. I'm glad you were able to recover it.

 

My biggest problem was my better half storing some of my cast iron outdoors and it turning brown !

 

The solution is to use angle grinders with a flap sander and wire wheels to remove the rust and then season them properly (and then hide them from her so she doesn't stick them outside again!!!).

 

I figured out something about women; they don't mind if you have stuff...as long as they can't see it.

 

WSM

 

Edit: And make sure to give them about 80% of available storage space that they know about!!!

 

Don't forget to wish her "Happy Mother's Day" (especially if you like sleeping indoors!)!!!

Edited May 8, 2022 by WSM

[WSM]

I've made a little progress on my BCA.

 

First I've chosen a 5 gallon bucket and lid. The bucket is a black one (black polymers hold up better than other colors if exposed to UV light) with a black, easy to remove lid.

 

After cleaning up the edges of the BCA blank on the table saw, I rounded the exposed edges with a small hand-held router. That experience has convinced me I need a router table with a fence so I can do this work cleanly (no wobbly edges).

 

I layed out, drilled and tapped four holes to mount the BCA to the underside of the bucket lid. Next I plan to transfer the holes to the lid and drill the lid to mount the BCA. I need to figure what size and shape hole to cut in the lid for exposure of the BCA for mounting the fittings needed to complete the cell.

 

If I get the time to complete it, my bucket cell will be operational soon.

 

This is exciting, I haven't actually run a cell for a few years. I need to continue my research and round out my series of articles published in the PGI Bulletin.

 

WSM

[Richtee]

 

 

Yeow! That pan was pretty nasty. I'm glad you were able to recover it.

 

My biggest problem was my better half storing some of my cast iron outdoors and it turning brown !

 

The solution is to use angle grinders with a flap sander and wire wheels to remove the rust and then season them properly (and then hide them from her so she doesn't stick them outside again!!!).

 

I figured out something about women; they don't mind if you have stuff...as long as they can't see it.

 

WSM

 

Edit: And make sure to give them about 80% of available storage space that they know about!!!

 

Don't forget to wish her "Happy Mother's Day" (especially if you like sleeping indoors!)!!!

LOL... You, Sir have been around a turn er two. Sage advice, all of it!

Edited May 8, 2022 by Richtee

[WSM]

LOL... You, Sir have been around a turn er two. Sage advice, all of it!

Good judgment comes from experience,... unfortunately, too much of that usually comes from poor judgment.

 

WSM

[WSM]

I've made a little progress on my BCA.

First I've chosen a 5 gallon bucket and lid. The bucket is a black one (black polymers hold up better than other colors if exposed to UV light) with a black, easy to remove lid.

After cleaning up the edges of the BCA blank on the table saw, I rounded the exposed edges with a small hand-held router. That experience has convinced me I need a router table with a fence so I can do this work cleanly (no wobbly edges).

I layed out, drilled and tapped four holes to mount the BCA to the underside of the bucket lid. Next I plan to transfer the holes to the lid and drill the lid to mount the BCA. I need to figure what size and shape hole to cut in the lid for exposure of the BCA for mounting the fittings needed to complete the cell.

If I get the time to complete it, my bucket cell will be operational soon.

This is exciting, I haven't actually run a cell for a few years. I need to continue my research and round out my series of articles published in the PGI Bulletin.

WSM

 

 

Because my BCA is 3/4" PVC, I drilled the holes about 1/2" deep. I used a #7 drill and tapped the holes for 1/4-20 bolts. My plan is to use 1/2" long stainless steel hex bolts with fender washers to hold the BCA to the underside of the bucket lid. I decided to drill only four holes, just in the corners of the BCA. If it looks like more are needed, I can add them later, but I'll try it with just four to start.

 

My hope is to see less corrosion of the hardware because my design keeps them all outside the cell, and only compatible materials inside the cell. I also want to avoid having to use expensive and hard-to-find titanium hardware for my bucket cell (the original idea was to do this simply and economically, right? ).

 

WSM

[WSM]

Because my BCA is 3/4" PVC, I drilled the holes about 1/2" deep. I used a #7 drill and tapped the holes for 1/4-20 bolts. My plan is to use 1/2" long stainless steel hex bolts with fender washers to hold the BCA to the underside of the bucket lid. I decided to drill only four holes, just in the corners of the BCA. If it looks like more are needed, I can add them later, but I'll try it with just four to start.

My hope is to see less corrosion of the hardware because my design keeps them all outside the cell, and only compatible materials inside the cell. I also want to avoid having to use expensive and hard-to-find titanium hardware for my bucket cell (the original idea was to do this simply and economically, right? ).

WSM

 

 

Progress!

 

This is the rough-cut BCA blank.

 

Here we see the BCA blank with the edges squared-up and the exposed edges routed round. The blank is shown on the underside of a 5-gallon bucket lid where it will be mounted.

 

Here is a view of the BCA blank mounted to the bucket lid on the bucket cell. The lid had a depression which interfered with the BCA blank mounting flat against the lid, so the depression section of the bucket lid was removed with a pocket knife before mounting the BCA blank with the 316 stainless steel hardware shown.

 

The plan is to cut an appropriate hole in the bucket lid to accommodate the fittings planned for the BCA (which will complete the bucket cell assembly). The BCA will be drilled and tapped for various PVDF fittings to hold electrodes, sensors, a vent, etc., and then re-mounted to the underside of the bucket lid with an RTV bead for a gasket between the BCA and the lid to seal against vapor or salt creep as the cell runs.

 

This method of construction and assembly is designed to keep incompatible metals and materials outside of the bucket cell interior and help eliminate contamination of the contents. It also negates the need to use expensive and hard-to-find CP titanium hardware, as would be helpful/needed if the hardware were inside the cell and exposed to the harsh environment there.

 

Also, as these buckets may be prone to (ultimate) failure, the bucket cell will be operated outdoors and in a suitably sized polymer concrete-mixing tub for containment of the electrolyte (again, just in case...).

 

I'll try to post more photos of this adventure as the cell is completed and given it's initial run.

 

WSM

Edited May 23, 2022 by WSM

[pyrojig]

Excellent. Little more simple approach than last bca.

Excited to see it in action . Thanks for posting your progress

[WSM]

Excellent. Little more simple approach than last bca.

Excited to see it in action . Thanks for posting your progress

 

 

Thanks. The KISS system (Keep It Simple, Stupid) seems to work this time. I had to dig out my old digital camera and charge the battery so I could get those photos. My smart phone takes such high resolution photos, the files are HUGE!

 

I plan to document here, the progress on this project.

 

WSM

Edited May 26, 2022 by WSM

[WSM]

I made a little more progress:

 

After disassembly, I cut the lid to expose enough area on the BCA to populate it with fittings for my bucket cell.

 

The hold up at this point is, where to put what holes and at which locations in the BCA? I think the next logical step is to decide on the size and type of electrodes, and then fabricate them. After that step I should have a clearer view of how to proceed with populating my BCA (Bucket Cell Adaptor)!

 

This project is far from done. I have a lot of work to do before it will be ready to operate on its initial run. For example, I am beginning to see the bucket lid material is a bit too pliable to handle the weight of the BCA (let alone all the added hardware needed) and I'll likely need to modify my BCA setup somewhat before it's ready to run.

 

More to come...

 

WSM

Edited May 30, 2022 by WSM

[WSM]

My biggest problem was my better half storing some of my cast iron outdoors and it turning brown !

The solution is to use angle grinders with a flap sander and wire wheels to remove the rust and then season them properly (and then hide them from her so she doesn't stick them outside again!!!).

 

 

While cleaning up the back yard, I found a collection of brown cast iron treasures (Dang it!).

 

I got to a stopping point and dug out a new Harbor Freight angle grinder (on Sale recently for about $10) with a flap sander wheel attached, and went to work cleaning off the corrosion. Later, I washed and dried them, before spraying them with spray avocado oil (what I had handy) and then sticking them in the oven set to 500^oF. The vent fans were set on high while this was going on.

 

Long story longer; black hands, louder tinnitus and a couple of painful blisters* later, and the cast iron treasure is nice again (now where to hide them?!!).

 

*The blisters are due to my forgetting how well 500^o cast iron holds its heat,... OUCH! I'm not foolish enough to lance the blisters, but it'll be a while before I can be less careful about what I can do with my hands . I knew better but I guess I got complacent, and my reward?, a quick and painful reminder! Please wear gloves if you need to re-season your cast iron cookware .

 

WSM

Edited May 30, 2022 by WSM

[WSM]

I made a little more progress:

Lid Cut to Accommodate Fittings.JPG

After disassembly, I cut the lid to expose enough area on the BCA to populate it with fittings for my bucket cell.

 

The hold up at this point is, where to put what holes and at which locations in the BCA? I think the next logical step is to decide on the size and type of electrodes, and then fabricate them. After that step I should have a clearer view of how to proceed with populating my BCA (Bucket Cell Adaptor)!

 

This project is far from done. I have a lot of work to do before it will be ready to operate on its initial run. For example, I am beginning to see the bucket lid material is a bit too pliable to handle the weight of the BCA (let alone all the added hardware needed) and I'll likely need to modify my BCA setup somewhat before it's ready to run.

 

 

This has been a rough year. The main problem has been a crowded schedule and a few medical issues. I've probably spent more time off work than working for my employer this year !

 

I'm currently quarantined with Covid-19 at my Daughter's home in the US Pacific Northwest. She and I probably got it during our long road trip to the PGI Convention in Iowa. We weren't aware it was more than a Summer cold till we tested positive several days after the Convention.

 

When I test negative and symptom-free, I'll make the long road trip home.

 

As for the bucket cell project, my thinking is to reinforce the lid with CP titanium sheet metal straps to help prevent gaps between the BCA and the lid (due to the pliable nature of the lid I chose). I think adding supports from a frame structure around the BCA section, to the edges of the bucket lid will relieve the thin plastic lid of the weight of the BCA and its multitude of fittings and accessory equipment.

 

My thinking is: the simple idea of the bucket cell gets more complicated when the practical application of wanted equipment is added. Another thought is to make the reinforcements with compatible polymer materials, instead of expensive metals; or even a hybrid mixture of the two?!!

 

I do have a large sheet of thin (~0.030") CP titanium sheet metal I haven't used, that might be enough to frame the topside of the bucket lid where the BCA is mounted and I could use PVC plate stock to build a support structure to suspend the BCA and its attachments from the edge of the bucket lid (all supported by the walls of the bucket underneath).

 

If I choose to do this, the whole system can be used for a long time and be transferred to replacement buckets and lids, as needed, in the future. Also, as I prefer to do my electrochemistry outdoors, I may have to build a small structure to house the whole thing to protect it from inclement weather. My thought is to keep it simple, somewhat like a rabbit hutch or similar. We'll see...

 

Any thoughts?

 

WSM

Edited August 14, 2022 by WSM

[cmjlab]

Reading through your bucket cell adapter posts, I had a couple questions pop up.

- How much does that titanium metal sheet cost? Sounds pricey to use as reinforcement.... Perhaps a couple aluminum angle pieces or even a more rigid plastic?

- what is your estimated total cost to build and run the cell? (Approx.) I looked into making one some time ago, but the cost of the potassium salt, electrodes, and materials ended up convincing me to purchase the KCl03. I assume once you have built a durable / functioning cell, that the cost would eventually balance out, or you'd come out ahead down the road.

- once running, what is the output amount over time? (I.e. how long till you have KCl03, and what quantity)

Thanks for entertaining my curiosity, with the shortcomings on shipping, and some companies unwillingness to part with their oxidizer supplies due to economic / shipping uncertainty, I may need oneyself!

Charles

Edited August 15, 2022 by cmjlab

[WSM]

Reading through your bucket cell adapter posts, I had a couple questions pop up.

- How much does that titanium metal sheet cost? Sounds pricey to use as reinforcement.... Perhaps a couple aluminum angle pieces or even a more rigid plastic?

- what is your estimated total cost to build and run the cell? (Approx.) I looked into making one some time ago, but the cost of the potassium salt, electrodes, and materials ended up convincing me to purchase the KCl03. I assume once you have built a durable / functioning cell, that the cost would eventually balance out, or you'd come out ahead down the road.

- once running, what is the output amount over time? (I.e. how long till you have KCl03, and what quantity)

Thanks for entertaining my curiosity, with the shortcomings on shipping, and some companies unwillingness to part with their oxidizer supplies due to economic / shipping uncertainty, I may need oneyself!

Charles

 

 

Hi Charles,

 

I don't remember the cost (I bought it over a decade ago), but it was too thin for most of my uses so it's just sitting around. It's a 24" x 36" piece of 0.025" thick CP titanium sheet, if memory serves.

 

The cost varies depending on when and where you shop for materials. I acquired many supplies years ago at great savings on eBay and elsewhere. The cost to run the cell depends also on electrical rates in your area plus availability of potassium chloride for feed stock.

 

Years ago I estimated the yield of a 5 gallon bucket cell (if run mostly continuously) to be about 200 lbs. annually (this is a very conservative estimate). Actually, the yield over time depends entirely on the parameters of your setup (for clues, read the blogs on Homegrown Oxidizers, parts 2-8).

 

It costs a lot less in labor if you can buy KClO₃, BUT if it's unavailable, having the ability to make it safely is PRICELESS!

 

If you plan to try one, feel free to ask about the specifics, and several here can offer helpful suggestions.

 

WSM

[Arthur]

I don't think it's possible to make perc cheaper than a professional supply. However it's possible to make it safely when there isn't a supply.

[WSM]

I don't think it's possible to make perc cheaper than a professional supply. However it's possible to make it safely when there isn't a supply.

 

 

Amen.

 

WSM

[WSM]

I don't think it's possible to make perc cheaper than a professional supply. However it's possible to make it safely when there isn't a supply.

 

 

Agreed, except I'll add that I think with proper care and preparation it's possible to make chlorate and perchlorate as good or better than commercial sources.

 

From my experiences in making these chlor-alkali salts, I feel that with proper clean up and purification of the starting and process materials (plus good lab techniques) we can make higher purity oxidizers than is generally available from the suppliers of our chemicals.

 

It takes work and effort, but it's completely possible.

 

WSM

[WSM]

Reading through your bucket cell adapter posts, I had a couple questions pop up.

- How much does that titanium metal sheet cost? Sounds pricey to use as reinforcement.... Perhaps a couple aluminum angle pieces or even a more rigid plastic?

- what is your estimated total cost to build and run the cell? (Approx.) I looked into making one some time ago, but the cost of the potassium salt, electrodes, and materials ended up convincing me to purchase the KCl03. I assume once you have built a durable / functioning cell, that the cost would eventually balance out, or you'd come out ahead down the road.

- once running, what is the output amount over time? (I.e. how long till you have KCl03, and what quantity)

Thanks for entertaining my curiosity, with the shortcomings on shipping, and some companies unwillingness to part with their oxidizer supplies due to economic / shipping uncertainty, I may need oneyself!

Charles

 

 

I was considering what materials I have on hand. I probably won't use the thin titanium sheet metal but I'm giving the compatible polymer options more consideration.

 

I'm less likely to want to use metals which don't fare well when exposed to the cell electrolyte (even casually or peripherally). Chlorine or chlorides and even their fumes can negatively effect most common metals available. I do my chlor-alkali electrochemistry outdoors for that reason (I can't afford to let my expensive and hard-won tools and machinery turn brown).

 

This is definitely true for chlorate production, even though it's less of a problem for perchlorate cells, which produce more ozone than chlorine, during normal operation.

 

WSM

[WSM]

My whole interest in making chlorates got it's start with a 40 lb. bag of potassium chloride water softener pellets, bought at a Large Home Center for about $7. This was 20 or more years ago.

 

Yes the potassium option for water softeners is much more expensive today, but to date it's still available, AND I've heard agricultural KCl is available (though I've never found it), but I suspect it would need to be purified by dissolving, filtering and recrystallization before it would be useful for a chlorate cell.

 

My first cell was a 5 gallon bucket with a graphite anode & stainless steel cathode, and was a total failure (and a glorious mess!).

 

My first successful cell was one gallon pickle jar with a 4" PVC pipe cap for a lid. It used an MMO on titanium rod anode and a titanium tube for a cathode, and produced several batches of chlorate crystals that Summer. My experiences were documented in my article, (Homegrown Oxidizers, Part 1) which can be read in the blog section here in APC.

 

When you read my blog section, you can follow my research to where I got about a decade ago. There is much more to learn, but I'm happy to share what I can.

 

WSM

Edited August 15, 2022 by WSM

[Arthur]

Having found a retail supply of 2.5 litre food storage tubs in polypropylene with PP fitted lid I reckoned that it would survive a year of operation if stood in a bucket. They were about $3 each.

[Arthur]

Having found a 2.5litre tub that works well, is there a reason to use a bucket cell and BCA? I'm happy to consider a year as a cell container's life then buy a new one.

[WSM]

Having found a 2.5litre tub that works well, is there a reason to use a bucket cell and BCA? I'm happy to consider a year as a cell container's life then buy a new one.

 

 

That sounds workable. Would the 2.5 liter tub benefit from a BCA adapted to it?

 

WSM