speditty Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I only have perchlorate as an oxidizer left and still have left over sulfur, charcoal, and some aluminum granular - only really good for adding silver sparks. Is there any rocket compostions that I could make with those that would work alright, or do I need to buy some other chemicals? I am new to this hobby, I have an old rock quarry I use to test and shoot off all these rockets and other fireworks I have made. any help would be great since I have no experience in making these. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Do you have a press? And for common rocket fuels, you'll need some other chems too. Edited July 12, 2012 by nater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I only have perchlorate as an oxidizer left and still have left over sulfur, charcoal, and some aluminum granular - only really good for adding silver sparks. Is there any rocket compostions that I could make with those that would work alright, or do I need to buy some other chemicals? I am new to this hobby, I have an old rock quarry I use to test and shoot off all these rockets and other fireworks I have made. any help would be great since I have no experience in making these. Thanks Sorry man but I am only able to find whistle fuel that uses perc in it and you don't have the benzoate that is needs. I really suggest that you buy some potassium nitrate to make rockets with. In the USA, DUDA Diesel carries it for an OK price. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genrege Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I once tried KCLO3/sugar (sorry not KCLO4 but may be similar?) in about 70/30 ratio in a small bottle rocket. Without a nozzle, not enough thrust to get more than about 3 feet off the ground (it hovered there in fact before it tipped over and came at me!), and with a bit of a nozzle like constriction it CATO'ed, so seemed a bit touchy to me, but maybe a mix with less oxidiser would calm it down. There's also a perchlorate black powder mix on pyro guide if you take a look there. No idea how it performs though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I once tried KCLO3/sugar (sorry not KCLO4 but may be similar?) in about 70/30 ratio in a small bottle rocket. Without a nozzle, not enough thrust to get more than about 3 feet off the ground (it hovered there in fact before it tipped over and came at me!), and with a bit of a nozzle like constriction it CATO'ed, so seemed a bit touchy to me, but maybe a mix with less oxidiser would calm it down. There's also a perchlorate black powder mix on pyro guide if you take a look there. No idea how it performs though Potassium Chlorate v.s. Potassium Perchlorate. I have made some perc based rockets with Asphaltum and some flew (comically I might add) and others did not. I won't try again. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I know someone who makes rockets with H3 and others who use Benzolift successfully. By "perchlorate black powder mix" I assume you mean KP burst. I do not know if that has been used as rocket fuel or not, or if it would work. You would be wise to listen to Dag and get some KN03 and start by learning BP rockets before moving on. Especially before moving on to less common mixtures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrShrimp Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) I've never made it before, but I'm sure I would find APCP much less stressful to make than candy or BP. Also, if you get your materials from the right suppliers it is fairly cheap. If this is for fireworks though, then maybe a less attention-drawing mix would be in order. Edited July 13, 2012 by mrShrimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 (edited) I've never made it before, but I'm sure I would find APCP much less stressful to make than candy or BP. Also, if you get your materials from the right suppliers it is fairly cheap. If this is for fireworks though, then maybe a less attention-drawing mix would be in order. Seriously? APCP is less stressful? just finding the HTPB or PBAN and then paying for it is stressful enough for me. It CAN cast well as long as the humidity is right, as long as it was not mixed to harshly or too lightly, as long as the grain sets up fully and has no voids.... Give me BP or R-Candy any day!! -dag Edited July 13, 2012 by dagabu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrShrimp Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I think you can buy everything but the aluminum powder at Firefox Enterprises for under $100 (the first time, then much less). As for humidity, I'm not sure how big of a factor that plays in the casting as long as you don't leave it in the rain. I know you have more experience than I do making rockets in general, so I agree with you about it being stressful. However, if safely and carefully mixed in small amounts at a time, I don't think making APCP would be much more difficult than lower grade propellants. Using PBAN as your binding agent isn't what I would do though, unless you have access to a curing oven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boule Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Making APCP or any other composite propellant isn't that hard, it is just basic mixing and then you pour the mass into a mould and let cure. The harder part is to get it to decently burn. Most of the composite propellants are designed to be using much higher pressures than our cardboard tubes would usually tolerate. I have very rarely seen working "composite" propellants in fireworks. The few that did not end up as a road flare on a stick (mine) were either cast into a nozzled container (shotgun shell) or were using a core that exceeded 5-6 caliber length. Amateur rocketry works around these issues by just using higher strength casings (Al) and graphite nozzles.These in fireworks would be a little bit counterproductive. The way around this is usually to use very rapidly burning composite fuels which are a little bit more tricky to acieve. Think airfloat milled AP, dark Al and West-system epoxy. I've tried but did not get sufficient lift out of a nozzleless engine to actually make it worth my time to develop further. This particular propellant might be a little bit more to the pyro liking since it is castable and quite energetic but has a couple more ingredients than the OP wants. The only things that come to my mind right now that use KP and are reasonably easy to make are either Asphaltum/KP or a rocket-candy type of propellant. I wouldn't know the exact balance for sugar / KP fuel but there are people out there that have shown it can be flown and a bag of confectioners sugar can be found pretty much everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 The NASA shuttle launch booster is purported to use Ammonium perchlorate. But it's rather more energetic that you need for hobby purposes. One of the reasons why some mixes are popular is that the last users survived. It's very possible to have a great pyro hobby without the inventory of a uni's chem stores! Chose a small range of formulations that work for you that use what you can purchase (or afford) in your locality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Just stick with bp if you're making rockets for fireworks, things are supposed to be disposable and APCP is generally a higher pressure propellant. BP is simple to make and cheap, requires cheap materials (casing or propellant) and AP is expensive. Actually I can't think of any reason to use potassium perchlorate as rocket propellant because it's more expensive and sensitive. You do need at least 10 chemicals to have a great pyro hobby, not counting chemicals to make bp, unless you want to stick with only one star color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speditty Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Do you have a press? And for common rocket fuels, you'll need some other chems too. I do not have a press, but im sure I could find something that could work? and what other chemicals will I need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speditty Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Sorry man but I am only able to find whistle fuel that uses perc in it and you don't have the benzoate that is needs. I really suggest that you buy some potassium nitrate to make rockets with. In the USA, DUDA Diesel carries it for an OK price. -dag Thank you and yes thats the only ones i can find too. But I just have to get some Kno3 then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speditty Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 I know someone who makes rockets with H3 and others who use Benzolift successfully. By "perchlorate black powder mix" I assume you mean KP burst. I do not know if that has been used as rocket fuel or not, or if it would work. You would be wise to listen to Dag and get some KN03 and start by learning BP rockets before moving on. Especially before moving on to less common mixtures. Alright thanks for the advise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speditty Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I recently tried a rocket with a tube from a estes C-6-0 rocket engine. it was just empty tube with the nossle and i have big bolt that screws into the back, just using it to see if the mix could work for rocket. anyways i was using 2 parts Kclo4 to one part sulfur to one part charcoal dust with just little corn starch then wetted it with 25% ethonol 75% water and packed it into the tub and screwed bolt in tight and let it dry out for 3 days or so. so put big fuse in and lit it. it didnt even start shooting out the nossle like i had expected it just immediately exploded loudest bang i have heard. so my man question here is the oxidizer properties of kclo4 vs kno3 they only differ with one oxygen so why do they oxidize so different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 It is the fact that the (per)chlorate ion has very different characteristics than the nitrate ion. Chemically, energetically, they are totally different. You are familiar with nitroglycerin? Take a glycerin molecule, replace the OH groups with nitro groups (NO2) to it. Boom. Theoretically, one could use perchlorate ions rather than the nitro groups, and you'd have an explosive vastly more powerful than nitroglycerin. The problem is, the sensitivity skyrockets, so much so that the molecule falls apart before it can even fully form. There are simple ethyl perchlorate compounds that are so energetic, a drop will blow a crisp hole through a stainless spoon. They are also insanely dangerous and scary sensitive. This is all basic chemistry. Back in the early 1800's, all the militaries of the world had was black powder. There were desperate attempts to replace the KNO3 with KClO3, which makes a vastly more powerful mix, but people died and it never worked, even when the sulfur was eliminated. It took nitrocellulose to finally replace the black powder to any great degree. Be VERY careful with (per)chlorates - they can be unforgiving and quite dangerous when mixed whilly-nilly with differing fuels. KNO3 is much more forgiving. I agree with the others, there is enough room for a lifetime of experimentation with BP rockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 There are potassium perchlorate composite propellants out there, but AP is supposed to be higher performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Care to share some of these potassium perchlorate based mixtures, or at least point us in the right direction to find information on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I found a rocket fuel comp I got from this elderly gentleman at PGI in Appleton, I will post it tonight. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boule Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I found a rocket fuel comp I got from this elderly gentleman at PGI in Appleton, I will post it tonight. -dag Reminder.......... post please ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 OH, right, sorry. MUTH ROCKET FORMULA ll Potassium Perchlorate 68.4Ammonium Perchlorate 7.6Sodium Salicyate 17.5Aluminum 5u Spherical 2.0Conductive Lampblack 2.0Copper Oxychloride 3.0Vaseline 3.0 Screen all ingredients together through a 100 mesh screen three times, melt the Vaseline and add it to 30 parts paint thinner, add it to the comp and screen twice through a 20 mesh screen, add more thinner and rice it through a 20 mesh screen. Press as one would a whistle rocket. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Dag, What is the intended effect, blue whistle with gold sparks? Edited July 25, 2012 by nater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Jim Muth said it was a really fast and white tailed rocket. He uses this formula in his four stage, 1/4" rockets. They are something to see! -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Oh, and whistle uses potassium perchlorate as an oxidizer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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