taiwanluthiers Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Are Ammonium Perchlorates necessary for a good blue, or are they possible without using Paris Green or AP? AP is expensive as hell and I just don't see much use for them outside of blue stars and rocketry. Is it something that is necessary for good blues or something I can live without? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 It's possible to get by without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 You don't need it. And you don't need Paris Green either, though Paris Green does give a unique blue IMHO. This one is good: Potassium chlorate 62Copper(II)oxide 13Parlon 11Red gum 9Dextrin 5 And this too: Potassium chlorate 68Copper oxychloride 14Shellac 8Chlorowax 5Dextrin 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Would it work to substitute copper carbonate for copper oxide? I figure copper carbonate turns into copper oxide when heated anyways. Also would using Potassium chlorate give better colors than perchlorate, or wouldn't make any difference? Chlorates are much cheaper than perchlorates in Taiwan (about half the price of perchlorates in fact, and sodium chlorate is even cheaper) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Yes, it would work. I think chlorates give better blues. Potassium chlorate contains more chlorine and realeses it easier than potassium perchlorate does. The flame is larger, etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 AP adds some incompatibilities and you can do well without it. Using about 10 parts of Hexanine can help get a nice blue, all depends on what is easy and cheap to get in your area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) For what it's worth, I tried out your first formula... used CuCO3 instead of CuO2, used Chlorowax instead of Parlon, and Shellac instead of red gum (the shellac is very gummy so it would not powder at all) http://youtu.be/vGarahknFCw It looks fairy blue to me but the camera can't handle the brightness. I like it better than the KP mix too. The bonus is K Chlorate is half as expensive as KP, although I did notice that they are easier to light compared to KP mix... The attached mov file does not work.. I am having a bit of a technical difficulty, for some reason youtube would not accept my clip. IMG_0629.MOV Edited June 27, 2012 by taiwanluthiers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Hm, your YT link doesn't work either. Anyway, it's the same with the prices in Europe: potassium chlorate costs about €5/kilo and potassium perchlorate about €10/kilo, often more. The only way to get cheaper potassium perchlorate here is to buy huge quantities and directly from the companies importing it to Europe. But I prefer chlorates in most cases anyway. Magnesium flash is one of the few compositions that are wiser to make with potassium perchlorate than with potassium chlorate. As long as you avoid sulfur and AP, you don't really have to be afraid of using chlorates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cogbarry Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 This has worked for me: potassium perchlorate 63copper carbonate 12parlon 15red gum 5lactose 5 The solvent used was acetone. I believe this is needed to dissolve the parlon. This is from Skylighter's rubber star instructions at http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/colored-screen-sliced-rubber-stars.asp I gave up on the screening method though, the stars that came through my screen were not cubical at all. I've had better luck cutting these stars and have also had some luck rolling them but this was tricky. ...and messy. I had trouble lighting some of the stars here but fence post prime solved that issue. Not sure if the blue is hard to light or not, I used fence post any ways. I thought the blue stars looked good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Commercially it's wiser to use potassium perchlorate, of course. There they need to work fast and in a standardized way, with broad safety margins. Their stuff should be transported over half the Earth etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 For me, potassium chlorate was $10 dollars a pound, and $25 dollars a pound for potassium perchlorate. The expensive price is due to the fact that they are reagent grade. Nobody sells technical grade chlorates/perchlorates and they said the only way to get them is to order it in 25kg sacks. The problem is that ordering that much strong oxidizers tend to draw too much unwanted attention and you need a permit to buy more than 50kg of those strong oxidizers. Besides, they would probably last forever (probably more likely it would expire before I use them all). Good thing that those are only used in stars, so I don't need to make a bunch of them. Potassium nitrate is very cheap though because it has use as food additives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Chlorates and perchlorates do not go bad over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 Lets try this IMG_0630.MOV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graumann Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 thats not a file either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 Man, for some reason youtube won't accept my iphone video... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANFO Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I know this probably isn't the best place to post this question, but until I reply once I can't start a newbie question thread, so here it is: Where do you get your ammonium perchlorate? I live in South Africa and I haven't been able to find any place locally that sells it, and I don't really want to synthesize it myself. All help much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 It's not the easiest one to get. It's uses are pretty much summed up by "civilian rocket fuel, military rocket fuel, and a little bit for fireworks, and a little bit for other pyrotechnics and for laboratories". It does not have any other significant uses, so there are no shops selling it for these other uses. Firework chemical suppliers sell it (online). You'll probably have to import it, unless there are firework or rocket makers in your area you could become friends with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenring89 Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Dont need it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANFO Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 It's not the easiest one to get. It's uses are pretty much summed up by "civilian rocket fuel, military rocket fuel, and a little bit for fireworks, and a little bit for other pyrotechnics and for laboratories". It does not have any other significant uses, so there are no shops selling it for these other uses. Firework chemical suppliers sell it (online). You'll probably have to import it, unless there are firework or rocket makers in your area you could become friends with. Thanks I want to make a fairly powerful hobby rocket, and I'm just looking at my options for fuel components. I would join the South African hobby rocket society but to be honest I don't have the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Thanks I want to make a fairly powerful hobby rocket, and I'm just looking at my options for fuel components. I would join the South African hobby rocket society but to be honest I don't have the time If there are already members of the SA Rocketry Society that are in to Ex rocketry, perhaps they could help you. Networking is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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